Arcmancy, Shaman, and Night Gifts - what do they qualify for?

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wilcoxon
Arcmancy, Shaman, and Night Gifts - what do they qualify for?

There are some edges that have prereqs that include things like "Adept or Druid or Sorcerer".  Do Arcmancy, Shaman, and Night Gifts qualify for all of these, some of these, or none of these?

What about Gloom High Magic effect of Obscure?  It seems like it would be appropriate for Night Gifts but currently says "Necromancer only".

My assumption is that anything that says Druid can be taken by a Shaman.

Night Gifts is trickier.  I'm assuming it would qualify for most of the ones that specify things like "Adept or Druid or Sorcerer" but it's hard to tell if they should qualify for any that currently say only "Sorcerer" or such.

Arcmancy is even more tricky as there really isn't any other AB in Shaintar like it (sort of Alchemy but not really).

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Arcmancy can't be substituted as a prerequisite for anything.  if there is another caster type required Arcmancy can't use it.

Shamans can take all edges that Druids can (minus the differences in the powers list.  Though if a Shaman really wanted a Druid power they don't have access to that's what the Expanded Understanding edge is for).

Greater Night Gifts as an arcane background technically is a standalone background.  It's designed that way and will stay that way, but there are some very cool things you can do with that background that other schools can't. If a GM were to allow it in a game you could take other edges but it's not going to be J&L/cannon to do so.

The Gloom high magic effect IS Neceomancer only because the effect is an evil one and a PC using it will be channeling Darkness.

To sum up: Arcmancy and Night Gifts are stand-alone, Shamans are basically Druids as stated in the book and can take Druid edges (but different power list so watch that), and ANYTHING that says "Only" a certain school means only that school of magic.

I hope that helps, anything I didn't cover or that you'd like additional clarification on?

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

That's kind of what I figured about Arcmancy since it does give some Edges in Crossbows, Crafting, and Ka-Zot with alternate qualifications of Arcmancer.

Greater Night Gifts seems majorly limited if that is strictly enforced.  I would expect them to be able to take at least the Edges open to all "casters" (eg not including Alchemy and Arcmancy): Heroic Surge, High Magic, and Arcane Artificer (every AB except Priest)

The catch with High Magic is that Greater Night Gifts seems to be missing a Heroic Edge like all other ABs get (Archon, Archmage, etc).  However, if they can't use High Magic, they are at a massive disadvantage at higher Ranks.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Not everything is going to be the same.  Some casting types focus on different areas, some have higher magical forms, some focus on lower magical forms.... But just because a hedge wizard doesn't know the high magic of a court wizard that doesn't make the hedge wizard less effective or worse or at any disadvantage.

High Magic is rare among any caster type and is used/useful even less frequently than that, so being excluded from that doesn't really hinder the Night-Gifted And certainly doesn't hinder them massively.

As to your expectations on what they can or cannot take, i will re-iterate: not every caster type is the same. The Night Gifted have many things other classes don't since their power list is a blending of many things that other caster types can't do (all at once) but this one can.

The class type is balanced against everything else, and part of that balance is the fact that anyone taking this route is not a pure caster and is designed to not be a pure caster.  Magic is a supplement for what these builds do and that's part of the balance too.

And as I said before, if you decide in your games to allow something else make certain the player knows that they need to run it past any other GM they play with since those other edges you mention are specific on their requirements.

And FYI: ALL of the edges listed under the "Power Edges" section of the new edges in the base Shaintar book are allowed for any caster type (Applications can be purchased through use of Expanded Understanding), and ALL of the power edges allowed in Shaintar from the core book are available as well.  The only things that start to be limited from this caster type are the edges in the Professional Edges section and those were designed for specific caster types.

So no. This caster type is not at all hindered compared to others, but if you'd rather play something that has access to something this one doesn't then play something else.  Not every character type will appeal to everyone, nor should you expect it to.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

I disagree about them being balanced.  Given that they only receive 3 powers (with no choice), 5 essence, and no access to High Magic, they are at a significant disadvantage.  The "random" power selection is nice but hindered significantly by lack of essence and needing to takne New Power for access to each of those powers (yes, all ABs need to take New Power but all others start with a chosen selection of powers).  Some of their disadvantages could be partially offset by use of Arcane Artificer but they can't take that either.  You can't even take Greater Night Gifts until Veteran rank unless you are willing to take the stiffer penalties of being Shadowed.

Please explain how they are balanced.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I did.  If you don't like it and want to min-max your character to being the best then don't use it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

I was just asking for the "math" of how they are balanced.  I've done system/mechanics work on multiple games and I don't see how this is balanced.  As it exists, a Shayakar is better off taking a different AB than Night Gifts regardless of what they want to do.

So, the ONLY thing Night Gifts has going for it is a wider powers list?  And that's supposed to make them balanced against other caster types?

The negatives list is just a tad longer:

  • must be Shadowed or Veteran rank
  • Only 5 essence
  • 3 fixed powers - no choices
  • no Arcane Artificer
  • no High Magic
  • no Heroic/Legendary Edges (like ALL other ABs get except Arcmancy (but they get Dwarf Wright Edges instead))

For something different but balanced, one possibility would have been to continue their inherent ability schtick and have an Edge that allows them to use a power a rank (or two) lower at will.

Oh, and one errata that probably should be added.  Per the RAW, a Shadowed Shayakar could take Druid or Priest (which doesn't make much sense - not sure if it makes sense for Unshadowed even).