Dregordian natural weapons

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Marc Lombart
Marc Lombart's picture
Dregordian natural weapons

Hello,

   I tried looking to see if my questions have been answered before, but could not find any. So, here goes.

I made a Dregordian warrior and am a bit confused by how to use the natural weapons, tail and claws, and how certain edges interact with those.

1) I presume that one of the hands is considered the weapon hand, so there is nopenalty forusingit in an attack.

@0 I further presume that using the hand doesincur the offhand penalty of -2.

3) What about the tail?Doesit also incur the off hand penalty?

4) If the answer to 3 is yes, does getting the ambidexterous edge remove the off hand penalty for both the tail and the other hand, or must I buy once for each?

5) How does Two fisted inteeract with a creature, such as a Dregordian that has a tail work? Doesgett/ing the edge Two Fisted remove the multi-action penalty for using theweapon hand, the off hand and the tail? or can I use combinations of two only? Such as using both claws, one weapon and the tail.  Or do I have to wait until I can get the tail lasher edge to be able to use the tail without multi-action penalties?

  If I didn't make myself clear, please ask me to clarify. Thanks 

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

I went looking on the Savage Forums for an answer to this, and I keep finding that it comes down to the GM if Ambidexterity applies to one MAP or all MAP. Reading SPF's edge, I am assuming that he specifically created Tail Lasher to account for the additional MAP of using a tail in combat. So, as I understand it, Tail Lasher is Ambidexterity specifically for the tail, as it effectively does the same thing but for one special instance. So:

1. As I understand, yes, your dominant hand would be your weapon hand. Making one attack would incur no penalty.

2. If you use the off-hand in the same round, then yes, the dominant hand would be -2 MAP, and the off hand would be -4 (-2 MAP, -2 off-hand).

3. I believe if I am reading everything right, it would incur an additional -2 MAP (but I don't think off hand). Using all in combat: Main hand attack at -4 MAP, off-hand attack -6 MAP, Tail attack -4 MAP. I think.

4. No. I understand that Tail Lasher = Ambidexterity for the tail, so you would have to wait until Veteren to negate the MAP for using the tail.

5. Based on this, I think that Two-Fisted and Ambidexterity would remove penalties for MAP and off-hand for your hands, but you would still take the MAP for your tail until you took Tail Lasher. At which point, I think you would be able to make a single attack with each penalty free. 

The reason I don't think off-hand applies to the tail because technically, if there is only one, that one appendage is always your dominant tail. If you had four arms, then you would likely have to take Ambidexterity twice and two-fisted twice to negate all penalties.

Please understand that this is NOT OFFICIAL until the Culture Warden has verified and confirmed. I am linking some reference docs here: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/14732/multiple-arms-and-ambidextrous

Interesting question!

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

This is a simplific matter and I myself can confirm this.  Speaking from how the rules are generated anything barring the of hand penalty will stack multi action penalities for additional actions. By how its literally listed in the Deluxe rulebook;  A character may not make more than one Fighting attack with the same weapon in one round. But as Howard has mentioned and the Culture Warden will say it too, two fisted would not affect the tail. Their specfic edge will however.

If you want to get crazy with the multi action penalities you could utilize both claws, the tail, then bite the enemy as well even curb stomp but believe the negatives will be rough. OVERALL, the Tail does not count in offhand..ever

 

Marc Lombart
Marc Lombart's picture

Murvoth wrote:

This is a simplific matter and I myself can confirm this.  Speaking from how the rules are generated anything barring the of hand penalty will stack multi action penalities for additional actions. By how its literally listed in the Deluxe rulebook;  A character may not make more than one Fighting attack with the same weapon in one round. But as Howard has mentioned and the Culture Warden will say it too, two fisted would not affect the tail. Their specfic edge will however.

If you want to get crazy with the multi action penalities you could utilize both claws, the tail, then bite the enemy as well even curb stomp but believe the negatives will be rough. OVERALL, the Tail does not count in offhand..ever

 

Thank you, let me summarie what I now understand. Two fisted never applies to the tail, I have to get the edge Tail Lasher to use my tail without MAP. However, using the tail never incurs the Off Hand penalty.

 

   So, lets ay I attackwith both claws and the tail, and Ihave Two Fisted and Ambidextrous. Iwould do the threeattacks at -2? Right?

 

--Marc Lombart

Throning_Karma
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As I understand it you would do 2 attacks (your claws) at a base 0 and 1 attack W/o Tail Lasher at a -2

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Culture Warden here, and as I not only have dealt with this previously and gotten official rulings I'll lay it out here for everyone:

1) Anytime you make an attack it counts as its own action so each claw attack is one action (the off-hand penalty applies to your non-dominant hand), then if you attck with your tail it counts as another action, add a bite for yet another action, and body slam for another.  I've even seen a player add in kicks.  But each separate attack adds a multi-action penalty.

2) Off-hand penalty applies to your off-hand.  It's assumed your legs are not favored one way or another, and a Dregordian would know how to use his tail as its part of his natural movement and every action already.

3) If you are wanting to remove the multi-action penalties associated with certain attacks that's where these edges start coming in: Ambidextrous gets rid of the off-hand qualifier on your off-hand but doesn't address multi-action penalties; Two-Fisted lets you make two separate attacks with either hand by removing the multi-action penalty for your off-hand (specifically your off-hand); Tail-Lasher removes the multi-action penalty from attacking with your tail. So if you took all three edges you'd be capable of making an attack with each hand and your tail every round without applying multi-action penalties.

There isn't a way to remove multi-action penalties from legs, mouth, body, etc... though.

As far as the Teeth and Claws aspect of a Dregordian, it means that those things gain a d4 of damage on top of your strength which other characters (like humans) wouldn't if you attack with your natural weapons instead of holding a weapon to attack with.

The claws are unusable if you are holding anything in your hands. If you are holding a weapon then when you attach with that hand you are using the weapon and the claws don't apply.  I specify this separately because it's very important for you to understand and the last statement you made in your original post implied the need for this specificity. Claws are only active when unarmed.

I hope that helped! Please let me know if there's anything else related to this that you would like to know or if I need to go over something again!  Happy Gaming!

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Marc Lombart
Marc Lombart's picture

Thanks, all clear now. 

--Marc Lombart

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Also, to the best of my knowledge the Martial arts edges do NOT stack with natural weapons (though there's an edge from Fantasy Companion "Natural Warrior" that can up a natural wepon by a die type if allowed by GM).

Dúnedhel Vala!

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

Murvoth wrote:

If you want to get crazy with the multi action penalities you could utilize both claws, the tail, then bite the enemy as well even curb stomp but believe the negatives will be rough. OVERALL, the Tail does not count in offhand..ever

 Perhaps it works differently in Shaintar, but the official Savage Worlds ruling is that you're restricted to a maximum of two attacks unless you have a specific ability that grants more. As written, the Dregordians' teeth, claws and tail just count as natural weapons, exactly the same as the Saurians from SWD.

 The following quotes are from Clint:

 http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=441789#p441789

 "Saurians as a player race definitely only have two attacks, regardless of how they are defined (claw, bite, or tail slap). Their racial ability just grants them natural weapons which increase melee damage and means they don't count as unarmed. Getting an additional attack would require a separate ability granting that specific effect (such as the +2 for multiple limbs from Deluxe or Additional Action from the Sci-Fi Companion).

 Even describing them as having a tail, an extra limb, doesn't grant an additional action with that limb unless the race specifically has taken that ability. It just means the limb could be used in lieu of an attack with an arm, not in addition to them."

 http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=384892#p384892

 "Characters get a max of two attacks barring a special ability (primarily an Edge of some kind). 

 It doesn't matter if the attacks are described as a headbutt, kicks, whatever, it's still limited to two attacks. 

 And yep, any that aren't with the primary hand would count as "offhand.""

 http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=392020#p392020

 "Note also that "hand" is a general term of the limited number of physical actions a character can perform. A kick or headbutt or anything else is going to count as a use of a "hand" unless the character specifically has an Edge to allow an additional action of that type (like certain martial artists in Deadlands)."

 

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

I suppose use Rapid Attack -4 (claw, claw, tail). Or get Two-Fisted/Frenzy.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Ok guys.  The ruling for Shaintar (and I've seen it used this way in other Savage Worlds games too) is you only get one attack or action per limb per round.  So you couldn't use a sword with one hand, then elbow someone with the same arm.  But you could use as many limbs as you have, and biting or body slam have been allowed as well.  But each additional action or attack adds an additional -2 to every action you take.

The most that would be allowed would be as follows:

- Run, Arm #1, Arm #2, Leg #1, Leg #2, Tail, Bite/Headbut, Bodyslam.

That would give you the possibility of 7 attacks on top of a run.  But attempting to do so would make your character be attacking at a -16 (One set of -2 came from off hand). This can be reduced with some edges as described above but that only gets you down to a -10 for all those attacks.  Hence why you don't normally see this level of multi-actions. 

That said, GM's can tell their players that they are taking too many actions and limit them. But as far as what is allowed in Shaintar games and what I've seen in SPF's games in the past this would all be allowed.

As for the Rapid Attack maneuver, that lets you make three attacks at once with a single weapon.  You specifically can only use that one weapon for attacks in that round even if you are holding another weapon, and cannot utilize anything else that would normally allow you an additional attack. So no, you could not use Rapid Maneuvers to give yourself a Claw, Claw, Tail attack because you'd have to use the same since claw attack each time. The benefit of this maneuver is that you can use a weapon multiple times in one round. The other drawback is all the attacks happen at the same time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

To clarify: The quotes in my previous post are from Clint Black, the Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager and Pinnacle's official "Rules Answer Man".

 Some settings add, remove, or change certain rules, and these modifications should be documented in the setting rules, so that people know what is different from the core rules.

 Anything else is a house rule.

 

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Understood. Thanks for clarification!

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ