Crossbows, Crafting, and Ka-Zot - use of Maestro in Artificing

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Tavis
Crossbows, Crafting, and Ka-Zot - use of Maestro in Artificing

How does Maestro interact with crafting items using the CC&K rules.

I understand the additional WTU's that are provided represent the potential for lowering the time to make an item - but when it comes to permanent essence being invested an item, the CC&K rules don't address where 'raises on the roll' that can reduce the essence costs come from.

The way I read the CC&K rules is also that the number of successes required to make an artificer item is in lieu of the penalties given to rolls to create items in the artificer edges.

I could assume that in order to reduce permanent essence costs, a 'raise' constitutes any successes beyond those required to actually create the item - which works quite neatly, but then poses one additional question.

As an artificer that fails to achieve the required number of successes on their skill rolls may spend additional WTU's to, effectively 'roll and add' - what is to stop an arficer that achieves enough successes to make the item from spending further WTU's to continue rolling in order to reduce essence costs, even though the item has been created.

For that matter, if there is enough available time, could an artificer choose to spend a 'second week' generating  more WTU's to continue the project and further reduce essence costs - potentially continuing until they are 'happy' with the final cost achieved?

The CC&K rules in this case, I would read as requiring a resource roll at the end of each week of crafting, regardless of whether the item has been 'completed' (in terms of actual creation, or the caster's acceptance of final essence cost), with a running out of resources, requireing the item to be finished at that point and essence paid.

Am I along the right lines, or am I missing something?

 

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

The first thing that you are missing is that a Maestro can reduce the final cost associated with creating the item, but he/she cannot reduce the permanent essence cost associated with creating a magical item.

The second thing I'd say in relation to creating a magical item with the CC&K rules is that  they are going to have the same final result except for one point. In this case Maestros can make the item faster because they could generate enough successes to not need to add WTU's To the project. Initial time needed to make the item would still be needed.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Tavis

since the only essence cost associated with creating a magical item is permanent,  what is the difference between the "final" essence cost, which you say the Maestro edge can reduce, and the "permanent" essence cost, which you say it can't reduce.

 

In CC&K the maestro edge already grants additional WTU's which presumably is there to cover the 'reduced crafting time' part of Maestro. 

My question was really whether once the required successes to create an item are achieved, can the Maestro choose to spend more WTU'S to continue crafting in order to reduce essence costs?

 

Does this mean that with CC&W the maestro ability to reduce final essence cost is, essentially, ignored.

 

(this may be moot point, as if the permanent essence cost can't be lowered with Maestro then that part of the edge already has no effect in the core rules)

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Maestro can't reduce the permanent essence cost. Period. Ever.

Thats not what it is for and it doesnt work that way.

I tried explaining that Maestro can reduce the time required but you just re-iterated that point when you stated that CC&K has reduced time for creation.

Basically the rules already stated your answer, you were essentially just trying to get more out of the rules by manipulating for reduced essence cost.

Final verdict:

- Follow the CC&K rules as they are written and if something isn't covered by them assume it doesnt come into play (I.E. Maestro doesn't do anything extra and is already covered by the rules).

- Or make the item with normal rules and not CC&K, at which point you make the item with all the normal limitations and within ritual rules etc...

Maestro is in general an edge which related to potion making. You can reduce the essence cost associated with making potions. But in making a permanent effect on an item Maestro won't reduce the permanent essence cost associated, the item creator has to put permanent essence into the creation of the item.  There is no way around that and there is no way to reduce that.  If you want to make a magical item it costs.  Yes you can get an amazing effect in the form of an item that has cool abilities; but you can't do it for free.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Tavis

swampfoxib wrote:

Maestro can't reduce the permanent essence cost. Period. Ever.

Thats not what it is for and it doesnt work that way.

Basically the rules already stated your answer, you were essentially just trying to get more out of the rules by manipulating for reduced essence cost.

But in making a permanent effect on an item Maestro won't reduce the permanent essence cost associated, the item creator has to put permanent essence into the creation of the item.  There is no way around that and there is no way to reduce that.  If you want to make a magical item it costs.  Yes you can get an amazing effect in the form of an item that has cool abilities; but you can't do it for free.

Ok, so Maestro cannot, in any way, reduce the essence cost of creating a magical item.

What then, is the purpose and meaning of the following sentence from the Description of the Maestro edge on Page 29 of my copy of Shaintar: Legends Unleashed?

"A Maestro who is also a Master Artificer reduces the final Essence cost of enchanting an item with a Power or Edge by one for every raise achieved on the Knowledge (Magic) roll and the Knowledge (Craft) roll."

Have I got a copy of the book that has an error in it, as the sentence reads, to me, that it reduces the Essence cost of enchanting items with Powers or Edges (creating magical items), but you have stated above that it cannot do that. Period. Ever.

It could be that I'm reading the Master Artificer edge wrong, but I can't find any reference to non-permanent essence cost for enchanting items with Edges or Powers, only for permanent essence cost.  As that permanent essence cost cannot be reduced in any way (as per your statement) then is there a non-permanent essence cost rule missing from the Master Artificer edge that the Maestro Edge is supposed to reduce?

 

 

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

If you are reading the Maestro edge straight from the book it does say that.  And it is supposed to say that.  But that has absolutely no bearing on the CC&K rules because they are a separate entity.  The CC&K rules are not influenced by that edge beyond what they already say and you can't just add time to reduce permanent essence costs.

When using normal crafting rules through the Arcane Artificer edges the Maestro edge works differently.  But as your questions up until this point were specifically in relation to the CC&K rules I had to say it the way I did because the CC&K rules for creating items are different.  CC&K is a different rule set and a different way of creating things than what is normally active in the basic rules.  So don't try to use them with things from the normal rules, they don't combine. Think of it as two rule sets; one that is crunchy and takes a lot of the players time and is harder to do in one sitting and the other is a rule set that is designed to let you make things with a simplified rules set.

I now will fully explain, in detail, how creating an item through Arcane Artificer works and hopefully that will be good enough to answer your questions about how Maestro works within the rules for creating items.

While playing in the game at the table, your character sets aside time to make an item or modify one while the other players at the table do other things.  You first determine how long of a time you need: roll of a d4+1. Then you make a Knowledge Magic roll at -4, followed by a Knowledge Crafting roll at -2 (the crafting skill must be related to the item you are crafting), and you need a success on both rolls.  If you fail either roll the time is used up and you'll have to try again. If you have Maestro and Master Artificer the raises you get can reduce the essence needed for a power or edge, and here that is reducing the permanent essence cost of making the item. Technically that lets you reduce the cost to zero.

CC&K is designed as a between session method for crafters to build things and uses work time units And other mechanics to determine success.

As with everything, a GM may determine that they want to run a rule set differently. Your GM may allow you to use CC&K and Maestro the way you are trying to force me to say it works. But if you go with how the rules are set and the way the current ruling is being determined then the only way to make something the way you want is at the table. You can't just use the mechanic of adding more WTU's to eliminate the costs associated.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep