The Metaphysical interaction of Morden & native Darkness Coruption

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Murvoth
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The Metaphysical interaction of Morden & native Darkness Coruption

I've found myself gripping literally at the vine upon this layer of evil since the inception of my Guardians of Rool Campaign and simply everything related to Darkness by many means. Without diverging too far on my plotline, recently the villains enacted a special ritual. The end result was the beginning of a metamorphic where one of the villains...maybe one of the higher ups is an originally Orc adept ensnared by the Morden Corruption with the black ichor and spiky bones. Now he is a Troglanesh but because of this ritual ...changed by gaining features of the Leechmen as well as her witchmark that now been given with her greatest followers reaping the rewards.  Essentially a hybrid was form, but that leads the question on Darkness itself. Probably does not help the Evershade seeps with life energies and opposites attract. 

 

Great Darkness of Shaya'Nor shifted the lands thanks to Vainar on lands belonging to the Dwarves. Rapidly, the lands changed to match the corruption of the inhabitants. The skies grew overcast, and a kind of foggy mist seemed to cling almost permanently to the ground. Seems to convey the shift, manipulating the environment as its a subtle force in itself. Corruption entices, acting in a more insidious fashion where  akin to the whole join the dark side once you cave into it...it has captured you forever like the flame.  Keep in mind in Accursed its listed under the Blood Queen's power that she emphasizes everything around passion and desire. She can alter these traits via enhancing or limiting, fixated on the darker aspects which can reflect the deadly sins we all know innately about.  For that reason I feel the reason as shown below why her version of Darkness is stronger.

  • +1 die type to Str

  • +1 size

  • Morden corruption: any wounds on the creature will drip and ooze with the oily residue of the blood queens corruption.  Any contact with this ooze makes healing difficult.  -1 to healing checks unless a full round is spent cleaning the wounds out with clean water before healing.

  • Anathema to Life: Corrupted cannot benefit from any magical healing, except that coming from Necromancy. Normal healing that relies on the use of plants, herbs and similar techniques won’t work for them, either.

  • Dark Protection: Corrupted are immune to all diseases and poisons.

  • Dark Resilience: Corrupted gain +1 Toughness.

  • Dark Sustenance: Corrupted gain Slow Regeneration.

  • Dark Vitality: Corrupted gain a +1 to recover from being Shaken.

  • Weakness: Corrupted suffer +2 damage from White Silver and Everwood.

 

Bolded in this template are the additional abilities of one afflicted with this plague...almost like a vampiric bite where it can be forced upon you, mostly to animals. Intelligent species just give themselves to this, persuaded in certain ways but very likely are methods to do it without consent. She is pretty much a dark deity of Lust, where native Darkness in Shaintar is creeping as their power is stationed at the Nether. though I am curious about opinions on this topic, awaiting for Magic and Cosomology Volume 2 comes out to state things.  Similiarities with them, yet with this foreign power not so much where I feel Morden trumps Shaintar. Debatable that the Blood Queen power could be classified as Flame as well. Nonetheless I would enjoy hearing thoughts. 

 

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

This is a key discussion for Shaintar and as we move into an era of focusing on keeping to "What Shaintar Is", I think this bears discussion.

I hear ideas or concepts of merging or hybridizing various cosmological elements. Perhaps the most significant and well documented is the Deniers of Death who successfully blended Necromancy and Arcmancy to terrible effect. So far as I understand, Arcmancy itself is some perversion of Light and Flame (?).

But, it seems to me that the Cosmological elements of Flame and Darkness are possessive. Short of thru the catalyst of Arcfire, I cannot recall an official instance in which Flame and Darkness were combined or fused. I personally believe this is due to their extremely opposite cosmological power. As we know from history, Flame/Darkness can work together, but ultimately all such alliances fail as one power or the other betrays for dominance. So too, within a single individiual, Flame and Darkness could not abide for very long. One would always seek to dominate.

But what of these new intruders into Shaintar? The Tempest?

Tempest combined Life, Sorcery and Flame!

So, then, what of Morden Corruption? We know they are similar, at least by description death and decay, but is one more powerful? Can a Morden Creature be corrupted by the native Darkness? Can creatures such as Troglanesh fall prey to the Blood Witches curse?

I suppose it could, but ultimately, Darkness, Flame, Morden...these are all possessive powers and I would not think they would suffer joint custody for long.

So in the end...Vainar or Blood Witch, in Shaintar, who's "gifts" are stronger?

I would vote Vainar, but Murvoth makes a good point. Strictly stat speaking, it appears that even in an alien land, Morden has the advantage.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I need you to clarify something.  Are you asking which we think is the more powerful set of abilities/game rules, or are you asking whether when she hits Shaintar world/Land does her set of abilities have to follow the rules and limits of Shaintar rather than the rules of Acursed?

If the former I can't speak to it as I have no knowledge of Acursed. 

If the later however, I believe that the best way to look at it is that the physical nature of how things work in the world of Shaintar should take prescedence.  If her abilities go against the rules of Shaintar or how the power works in Shaintar then you need to change her abilities such that they match the Shaintar world setting.  Think of it like traveling from Earth to another planet.  On the other planet there are going to be many differences that come with how the world functions that we would have to put up with and wouldn't have any control over. For example, Gravity is higher on the new planet so our strength is inherently immediately decreased in relation, what once we could do we no longer cando as easily if at all because of the increased Gravity.

Likewise, on Shaintar Darkness works in a certain way, maybe because of the Cosmological flow of energy.  Say her powers are more effective in the Acursed setting, but she comes to Shaintar which is a planet made of mystical energy turned into a solid object.  Her powers don't affect those around her as much maybe because everything around her has its own inherent power protecting them.

Basically that's just a flavor-physics-based explanation for why her abilities and powers should fit the system Not just stay at the level they are at because she was written at that level.

 

Double Check with Sean Patrick Fannon on that sonce its his final say, but that's just how I see it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

howardrbrandon-RF
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Botom line:

Can Morden Corruption and Vainar Corruption be fused within a single organism?

If so, how does this manifest?

If not, which would ultimitely prevail?

Also, would one form of Corruption make you "immune" to the other?

And to that, would being consumed by Flame make you immune to the corruption of Darkness and vice versa.

 

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Steven C
Steven C's picture

This sorta sounds like the real world question of, 'if a zombie, a werewolf and a vampire fight and bite each other what happens.'

I don't have my Accursed and Shaintar books so I'm saying this without evidence to back me up and could be wrong. I think the Witchmark edges out the Flame and Darkness from a corruption standpoint because in Accursed the Witchmark itself can corrupt anyone, the Djinn's mark corrupts the person that killed the previous mark always. With flame and darkness however the final step to corruption is you making the choice so the mark could be considered stronger if my statenemt is correct.

That said the Witches are incredibly powerful beings and it took a massive effort of a crap load of strong beings to just kill one of them. Understand the Bane War, in which the witches were walking all over Morden, ended because the witches realized they could die and suddenly it wasn't as much fun anymore (then there is the plot point campaign in the book were we learn just how wrong we are about the whole killing).  

This means that the witches are incredibly powerful, at least Ascended level if not a notch or two higher then that. If that is the case then the Ascended, Ceynara, Vainar and Achanon have much more leeway to play as the witches could fall under the convenant and allow the greater powers of Shaintar to directly act upon them. Whether or not the witches are stronger (and I think it depends on the witch itself) the ascended work together and they do not without a powerful central force which they lost 40 some years ago

The long winded point is if the Witchmark does trump the other corruption others it could be because the mark is an active corruption on the part of the witch while the shaintar corruption is more passive because it gets around the covenant. 

howardrbrandon-RF
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That is a cogent point.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Steven C
Steven C's picture

So I looked over the Witchmark again and thought about it and the how corruption works and I believe we are looking at two different things entirely. Once you are corrupted in Shaintar, your corrupted, Vainar and Ceynara may have power over you but its not because your corruption is part of them but more likely beccause they have access to that sourcce of power. They are the gatekeepers of the Flame and Darkness they aren't the owners, at least it hasn't been precieved that way. Lastly corruption from Flame and Darkness doesn't seem to grow on you, there is no struggle, you are or you are not. Sure you can access more power and channel it but nothing I've seen shows that a corrupted novice necromancer is 'less' corrupted then a seasoned one.

A Witchmark is the personal stamp of the Witch. Witchamarked are chosen, they are champions, they grow in power as they move forward. Shaintar has something like that already, the Chosen... the Horn and the Feather. I submit that the Witchmark isn't corruption as Shaintar understands it, with Flame and Darkness, but in Shaintar terms it is the Chosen of the Witch.

Looking at it this way it does solve an issue of the Shaintar and Accursed and that beeing redemption*. If we treat the Witchmark as corruption like the Shaintar treats corruption of Flame and Darkness the bad guys being and staying bad could potentially be a problem when part of Accursed is being the Monster that could try and succeed at finding redemption. If instead the Witches are like Saiderin and the Unicorn in power (which I believe) then they select those that they wish, mark them, and imbue them with said power. The key difference is that the Witches do more then just grant their champions some power they in fact twist the bodies, minds and souls of their 'chosen' to be reflections of what they want.

Corruption in shaintar, as I posted before, is more passive; Vainar isn't shoving Darkness down someone where the Crone was. Posted in this way could the Unicorn grant Chosen status on a necromancer (themes aside)? If so then I think a Witch could mark the Darkness.

 

*There is one canonical story in the Golbinesh book of the Silver unicron creating the Silver Tree and uncorrupting the darkness within.

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Steven C, that is actually very compelling. In which case, Murvoth is correct in that the Witch Mark is "more powerful" as even someone who is corrupted, could be Chosen and changed.

I'd really love to get a ruling on this from on high, but this would be a great inclusion in Magic & Cosmology 2 (sidebar).

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Steven C
Steven C's picture

An extension of that is the question of could a Chosen of the Horn/Feather become Witchmarked and vise versa and to me the answer is no. In Accursed your Witchmark offers you protection against other marks and follwoing my post before I believe that Horn/Feather would offer you the same said protection. Actually I also believe that the blessings of Archanon and the Ascended from Magic and Cosomology would grant the same protection as being Chosen, along with whatever Ceynara and Vainar have for their 'chosen.' This would mean that Saiderin and the Unicorn couldn't make a Vargr a Chosen of the Horn/Feather anymore then the Blood Witch could make them a Dhampir. The same is said about Baba Yaga, she couldn't mark a Chosen of the Horn/Feather and turn them into a Vargr either.

There is one notable expection, the fall back on I always go to, and that being the Mummy's mark. Now it doesn't say that it can override another Witchmark and it doesn't say it can't either. I believe that whatever is the 'offiical' answer is what Shaintar should follow that with regards of the Chosen as a continuity thing (if what I posted is something Shaintar is using). 

 

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

How the corruption has worked thus far in my campaign, she has targeted those during their worse mentally like starving to death and whatnot. She creeps into one's conscious, whether they are awake or within dreams as mentioned in the entry on the Evershade Forest.  Her typical corruption mostly has swooped upon wild life but its more a disease vs becoming chosen.  Those Chosen are essentially immune, but if she can break them and manipulate their desires....might be argue that it can be taken. However,  Steven has it right on the Witchmark where in my case this gather only has. Scarlet Dram turned people to Leechmen and anyone can fall under that.

 Nonetheless with these forces it appears Shaintar converts it in like the case of the Tempest. Combinations between Life, The Way, Flame, Darkness, Sorcercy and Light. Arcmancy has it with three, so does the Tempest. My recent events might have brought Accursed spells from the book into the world, potentially dragging along Witchcraft which I would say possesses Sorcercy and Darkness perhaps. Until Shaya'Nor book and Volume 2 of Magic & Cosmology this is ballpark.

 

Steven C
Steven C's picture

Murvoth wrote:

My recent events might have brought Accursed spells from the book into the world, potentially dragging along Witchcraft which I would say possesses Sorcercy and Darkness perhaps. 

Personally I'd stay way from classifying witchcraft with Shaintar power sources. With Darkness the White Witches, who use Witchcraft like the Witches, are going to have a heck of a time convincing the Southren Kingdoms they are here to help when they are slinging around magic that deals with Darkness. 

Saiderin the Raven
Saiderin the Raven's picture

Wow.

Heady, interesting questions.

Not to oversimplify too much, but essentially, I see the Corruption of Darkness as almost completely compatible with that of the Witches of Morden. A Witchmarked creature from the Accursed Lands could easily gain more power - if sought - on the Shaintar side of the Veil.

If, however, a Witchmarked hero came over, and they chose to connect to Light or Life in some way, or at least continue their fight against the total corruption of the Witchmark, I would feel compelled as a GM and storyteller to honor that tale and let it play out. Such a being would constantly endure the pull of Darkness, and I'd probably set something up that meant greater power for them - but they'd risk everything if they used it.

As for Flame's interaction with Morden Darkness, it's just as incompatible and adversarial as it is with Shaintar Darkness. Utterly different Powers.

"There is no heroism without sacrifice. For this, I am terribly sorry."

Saiderin the Raven
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As for Morden spellcasters - villainous casters would naturally find themselves connecting to and wielding Darkness, while White Witches would actually discover they're tapping Life.

"There is no heroism without sacrifice. For this, I am terribly sorry."

howardrbrandon-RF
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Thank you SPF.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Netherstones of the Original 13 comes to mind if only for they possess a type of energy akin to them as stated by SPF. That appears to be a different subject altogether. The most malicious thing about the morden corruption is unlike the typical corrosion of darkness from Vainar...its entirely possible even if brief to envelop a flame creature. However since choice exist, extremely improbable.  An option which the Emperor has shown; offsprings. The horrific thought of such corruptions affecting essentially demi-gods. Obviously they gain the attributes of darkness, the implications is the thing that seem intriguing for a power grab.

What better way for a Witch of Morden to gain an ally with their Witchmark + corruption. Only the Chimera and Blood Witch displayed their version of morden magic. Unique scenarios can occur.  Entities like the Offspring are engimas...the Kal emperor a good example when the effort is shown. 

Steven C
Steven C's picture

Saiderin the Raven wrote:

If, however, a Witchmarked hero came over, and they chose to connect to Light or Life in some way, or at least continue their fight against the total corruption of the Witchmark, I would feel compelled as a GM and storyteller to honor that tale and let it play out. Such a being would constantly endure the pull of Darkness, and I'd probably set something up that meant greater power for them - but they'd risk everything if they used it.

Does this include those Witchmarked Heroes that embrace their Mark? I ask because my players enjoy playing the Monstrous hero, they almost always embrace the mark to become more monstrous but still fight the Witches themselves. 

I ask mainly for the corssover and that it could introduce characters like that to Shaintar.

Matrix4b

Reviving an old Thread, it's somewhat relavant to some adventures that I am contemplating:

By the sounds of it a Witchmark is sort of like a Darkness (albiet alien Darkness) version of Chosen of the Horn (or Feather).  Such a creation seems possible and likely.  Why should the Heroes have all the cool toys? 

I see the template for Morden Witchmarked but need to know how it works, how one is chosen and if/when someone can break the mark and be "cured" as it seems possible.

I will admit that I don't have Acursed and have not delved into it.  But it seems that currently, there is no Chimera but Morden from Acursed.  So there is some residual cross over stuff going on.  A play is being made.  So some more questions:

How do Vainar and Morden compare?  Are they at odds or working together?  Overall, How does that work, cosmologically speaking?

David Forby

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Well, first off, Witchcraft from Morden translates to Darkness in Shaintar. So, Morden Corruption becomes Necromancy in Shaintar. That makes things easier from the start.

Witchmarked characters are actually branded. The Blood Witch is aware of all of her brood, so the control is much tighter, though the Blood Witch has a much smaller influence...for now. Also, Blood Witch Banes are unique creatures. The lowest order are zombies that hemoragge a black ooze. Then you have Flayed ones, Leech men and Morden Vampires which are very similiar to native varieties with a few differences, one being they are witchmarked.

And yes, the Chimera is gone along with ALL chimera creatues save for the Troll headed Kraken which is, for the time being, unkillable.

At present, Vainar's forces and the Blood Witch are at odds, though not actively at war. There are skirmishes between the groups. The Blood Witch is content to consolidate power and, while there will always be conflict, the two forces have more in common than they do differences...except that in the end there can be only one. 

Of course, they do have all of Shaintar to conquer first. So, at present, they are at odds but not actively at war.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Just as an FYI, I am keeping tabs on this thread but having no experience with Acursed or the crossover book I have to get that book and cover the content.  If you have specific questions for me please ask and I will respond, though if you wouldn't mind taking point on this Howard (you seem to be doing an amazing job of it so far) until I'm able to get more acquainted with that content I'd appreciate it =)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Conjuring up a new topic within a thread indulged in plenty of interesting conversations. We've seen the extent of at least Morden Corruption seeping into creations of life like Driads and Elemental spirit. Considering the stage we are heading into thanks to the events at Dark Moon 33rd, the metamorphsis and perverse shifting of light spirits like the Angellic beings into a corrupted version. Even those at the hierachy like the ones in Unleashed, a Necrolord or Vainar himself probably thanks to channeled through an Avatar bring a captured one to his side. The chilling ..even disrespectful thought is someone almighty in the ways of necromancy going as far...hell I argue with expanded understanding a puppet spell with dark trappings and at the legendary level could do it. 

Thoughts? Opinions? Figure we are reaching the high point for Darkness where such occurances are quite possible.

 

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

After looking through again and reading your question it probably is time to re-iterate conversations and clarifications that have developed in the intervening time of this thread being inactive. :

If something is brought over from any non-Shaintar setting, the things that are brought over Must be converted to fit into the Shaintar rules/cosmology. Meaning, Darkness is Darkness. If a character is tapping Darkness they aren't a PC anymore (there are things in recently published books that bend that slightly, but other than those specific examples it's best to accept that for simplicity's sake and for working within the Intent of what Shaintar is).

Morden corrupted beings are still corrupted by darkness, they aren't Life-bound anymore. But such things are possible and happening so bringing that into a game is going to lead to some fun roll play and stories as something that should be a life spirit is suddenly registering to players as a darkness creature... I like it!

Expanded understanding provides for casters of one type to take spells from another caster's pool of spells. For Necromancers to take anything else is easy enough but players can potentially get in trouble when trying to take a Darkness power (a specific example that has come up is the Zombie power. One way it has worked was a dwarven wright taking Zombie in conjunction with building a "Frankenstein" from old Golem parts and controlling it similarly to controlling a drone by remote. One way it was suggested which wouldn't work was a Druid taking the power to raise fallen bodies as a learning exercise to learn about darkness etc...) If a player takes a power and uses it through ways that are corrupted then they are at that point corrupted. Taking that power in such a manner on the mechanics side 'works' but what isn't immediately explained is that taking that edge to use that power represents the character over time in the world doing something which allowed them to gain it.  Hence they could take blast: it then becomes a blast area of lightning for example.  But if they use it as a fire effect they are Flame corrupted as the only way to gain a fire trapping is to sacrifice a baby to a demon.  Likewise raising dead bodies through Zombie is playing with dead things and summoning spirits into corpses (I.E. Darkness acts in either forcing a life/good spirit into a dead body which is like raping such a spirit, or forcing a dark spirit in which is Dark). So using Expanded Understanding is a little tricky and I recommend being careful.

For those who want/like to play characters who "Embrace the evil/darkness" but still do good; that's not in the vein or feel/intent of Shaintar.  Those are evil characters, and while evil characters can do good things that's something i recommend keeping to a non-J&L campaign because it doesn't follow the Spirit of Shaintar J&L.  But doing whatever you want at your own table and in your own games is absolutely possible.  Just let those players know that if this kind of thin is going on it isn't somethin that they can bring over into other Shaintar J&L games and it's not technically J&L cannon.

 

Murvoth, I wrote a lot, most not aimed at your question, but aimed at other pieces from this thread which I thought needed to be addressed since they've been brought up elsewhere. Can you tell me what after this you still need/want addressed? Sorry for hijacking your hijack but felt I needed to summarize some things since this thread has been re-awoken.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Your copious amount of words did not veer too far from my question, reawakening this topic for now it'll become more signifant thanks to the arc Rise of the Fallen. My question to trigger a potential conversation even with clarfication was "bearing witness" the pernicious act of doing something heinous like corrupting them. The them in this context are the spirits of the Lightbringer himself, regarding the Aetherial Warders, Angels(Ancestoral Aevakar), and the rare Lawbringers.  Its the mere thought of Vainar, A Necrolord, or someone aligned to Darkness with close to that power doing what the Bloodwitch did to Life spirits.

If one reads Legends Unleashed these Angellic hosts are impressive, makes one ponder if say a powerful Priest of light was captured, tortured into summoning an angel, then watch the meriless treatment of breaking it and molding it into an agent of darkness.  Shades are terrible enough creatures with Spectral lords a good second place barring Liches not yet stated in Shaintar. But mainly its corruption of light spirits/angels.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Hmm, so if you turn an angel into an agent of darkness, would he then have "fallen"?  Welcome Lucifer!

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

As a true believer in Archanon, I want to say no. But it is a good question to consider. I would be very interested to know myself. This has great implications on the world of Shaintar and must be considered carefully.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

One thing that I do remember having had conversations with Sean about in the past is that if a character is protected by one of the ascended they can't be corrupted to another except by choice.  So corrupting one or Archanon's Angels is off the table unless you check in on exactly why such a thing happened and give us time to review.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

OK  sounds good, No fallen angels except in exceeedingly rare circumstances, this  also raises another thorny issue of celestial beings and free will, can an angel "choose" to fall (or to sum up "Good Omens" (read it if you already haven't!!) Crawley didn't "fall" so much as vaguely saunter downwards....)  bah, I'm getting too deep into a fantasy game  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Not in the slighest referring to a PC or typical villain, more with Necrolords or Vainar himself

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Let me say it another way.  If something like that we're going to happen it would most likely be on the level of a major story arc, kindof like the recent rise of Vainar.  It's not something that's probably going to be going on anytime soon as we have many hot pokers in the fire and ready for you guys =)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep