Handbook of the Broken.

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swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

There are a couple of side points to what you said about your build that I'd like to point out.

- Taking a second casting type (sorcerer, druid, priest, alchemist, etc...) is generally not allowed. When it has been allowed it was usually allowing alchemy to a caster or vice versa like you mentioned, but it's an exceedingly rare thing and we generally don't allow it without a good reason (and making you more powerful isn't considered a good reason). Part of why we don't allow it is because of how massively powerful it could be.

- The second point is that you said this character isn't as good at combat, but adding bonuses to skills like fighting and parry or armor are major boons in fighting situations and actually make a character wielding such things extremely powerful (and if left unchecked over balancing and broken). So don't sell yourself short on that front, if you ever built something up to a +3 you have a guaranteed basic success, and by the time it hits +5 you practically have a guaranteed raise. Also, those items you mentioned don't have to only be wielded by their creator which makes them even more exceedingly powerful.

Overall you have managed a very powerful and almost broken concept without adding sorcery, and with sorcery I would definitely agree it belongs among the Pages of the Broken! Congrats on creating a truly terrifying force for a GM to run against

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

swampfoxib wrote:

Taking a second casting type (sorcerer, druid, priest, alchemist, etc...) is generally not allowed. When it has been allowed it was usually allowing alchemy to a caster or vice versa like you mentioned, but it's an exceedingly rare thing and we generally don't allow it without a good reason (and making you more powerful isn't considered a good reason). Part of why we don't allow it is because of how massively powerful it could be. 

I always saw this character as a Sorcerer - I only took Alchemist because it is required for several of the Artificer Edges.  I will likely never take another Alchemy power or Edge that isn't about Artificer.  I always thought those Edges should have been "Artificer OR Alchemist".  Then again, it may just be that I'm biased - I don't find alchemy fun in any game (the closest I've found is Shadowrun 5 but, even there, after a few sessions I got tired of it).

Other than Alchemy, the only other casting type I could see taking as a multiple is Greater Night Gifts because that seems to be more racially based than trained (so I could see a character with Greater Night Gifts and another casting type).

faradhii
faradhii's picture

There may be a specific rule somewhere regarding weapons and armor as seperate skills, but I've found most GMs use "Blacksmithing" to cover both skills.  Your mileage may vary, and there may be an offcial ruling somewhere I'm not aware of.

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Wilcoxon:

Actually the edges being specific to alchemists is because of using alchemy to enhance the material or final product so it makes sense as alchemy based requirements.  But those edges were put in to give alchemy more of an effect and more reason to take it over other casting types.  So that would still fall under the category of why we don't usually give it or anything else as a second magical ability.  So it was intentionally built that way.  I understand the desire to do that though, and if you have a character who is an artificer and who works with an alchemist who has those edges they could do together the thing you would be trying for one to do alone.

And among the new stuff Night Gifts is one I could see a GM allowing to pick up alchemy alongside.  Another thing is I can't remember a specific location where that's not allowed, we just generally reccomend not allowing multiple casting types and generally don't let that happen in most J&L games I've seen and been in.  Nothing stopping a GM from allowing it though that I know of.

Faradhii:

I've actually seen everything from Blacksmithing covering metals and Leatherworking covering hides and leather through someone specializing in a weapon or armor type or even more or less restrictive from there.  It all depends on the specific GM and whether they will let you make an item or not.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

Legends Arise pg 57 wrote:

“X” Craft: Applies to the creation of special items that can be magically enchanted.  The  most appropriate versions  are  Gem  Craft; Armor Craft  (metal); Weapon Craft  (metal);  Wood  Craft  (staves,  bows  included; involves  Everwood, too); Silver Craft (as applies  to  both silver and White Silver).

Personally, I think a better list would be: metal arms/armor, wood, leather, jewelry.  At a minimum, I definitely think metal armor and weapons should be combined into blacksmithing.

There is nothing in the rules that says you can't take two AB.  I know SPF (possibly somewhere on these forums) specifically said it was allowable but rare (basically up to the GM whereas most SW settings say only one AB).

My current GM is using the skill specialization rules for Knowledge (Craft) which makes a lot of sense to me but might make Artficing too powerful (it definitely allows getting all materials easier but just picking a few materials is almost as good (at least for your character - it may not help others in the party as much unless they build with your material choices in mind)).

wilcoxon

As to Artificing being designed to bolster Alchemy, that would make a lot more sense to me if Arcane Artificer required Alchemy but it works with any AB except Priest/Miracles.  Given that, it doesn't make sense to me to have Savant (and, by extension, Maestro) require Alchemy.  Personally, I'd rather see the Edge effects as they currently are but change the prereqs to the same ABs as Arcane Artificer - that way, you only get the full effect if you have both Alchemist and Arcane Artificer but you can take it for Artificing without Alchemy if you want.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I think you misunderstood me.  Artificing wasn't made to make alchemy better nor vice versa.  The artificing edges that require alchemy were put in there to help alchemy and help set it apart.

In the end, everyone has different ideas on how they'd have made the game; but we have J&L follow how Sean made it where we can so as to provide a stable base for everyone.

And while you are right about that list being in the book for crafting skills, I've seen different GM's handle it differently so work with your GM for how they want you to do it and if you visit a new GM and they tell you it won't work the same way as your other GM then don't argue the point.  You can always go back to your main GM another time. Also, let any GM you switch to look over the items you made to be sure they'll allow them in their game (And tell them how the item came to be).

Any GM is God at their table.  If they say to do something a certain way play it their way and if you disagree strongly wait until everyone is stepping away from the table to talk/argue with the GM.  They may have a reason for the change but arguing at the table may ruin the experience for others or be attempting to force the GM to provide information your character doesn't have. It's always best to just go with it in the moment.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

If you want an example of the obscenity that IS multiple arcane backgrounds (this actually started as a real character and slowly evolved, now I occasionally play in Howard's High end games and even then I use about 1/2 the power creep).

https://shaintar-j-l-rangers-of-lorelei.obsidianportal.com/characters/ash

Dúnedhel Vala!

wilcoxon

Apparently I missed something on my quick read-through.  What makes Ash so broken due to Druid and Priest?

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

wilcoxon wrote:

Apparently I missed something on my quick read-through.  What makes Ash so broken due to Druid and Priest?

Ash would be defined as an abomination in terms of power. He has Sorcery, Priest of Light, and Druid. Keep in mind each background grants one 10 starting essence/power points. With more selection in spells, trappings, etc...it makes him very versatile.  If you witness him in play you'll see but he is legendary now so that something to consider

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Yup.  That character is pretty overpowered. And I'd never have let my players get three caster types (and probably not even allowed the second one that you took as other than min-maxing there really isn't a reason to take other caster paths when expanded understanding allows access to the spells you otherwise don't have).

Glad you're able to have fun with him sometimes, but wow...

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Yeah, at this point he's basically retired and running an Archecaster Academy in Echer'Naught.  (I need to write up the academy for Howard).  Also note the d4 in The Way  :)  4th path some day  (it's good to be immortal!  :)  )

Personally I'd cap mixed caster types at 2, I always liked the concept of the Mage Priests of *insert country here* as a concept.

Dúnedhel Vala!

wilcoxon

Ah.  I'd missed the Sorcerer thrown in as well.  Yeah, I'd cap casting types at 2.  In most cases, I'd probably allow 2 (if I was GMing) but I'm sure someone can come up with a build or combination that I wouldn't.  The one I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't seem to make sense is Priest of Light and Greater Night Gifts (although a Shayakar Priest could be an interesting role-playing character (hated by pretty much everyone though)).

Matrix4b

I don't know if this was addressed before:  Goblin's Edge: Versitile Nit.

Versitle Nit: Seasoned, Jack-of-all-Trades

This allows the Goblin to take a Human Racial Edge.

I must say that I am considering a Goblin Sorcerer now.

Ok, first question: Can Versitle Nit be taken multiple times? 

If so then you could take: Versitle Nit: Epic Destiny: Easy Magic: Quickness, then Take Versitle Nit again for Epic Destiny: Blood of Heroes.  Then take the edge of Power Surge.  Add to that Command and Tactician later.  As a spell, take Quickness and Easy Magic (Quickness). 

Here is what happens:  You get delt inititive and treat any face card as a Joker.  You gain 2d6 power points when you get a Joker.  After Quickness is successfully cast, you can only get Face Cards!  Now add to the fact that you can cast 2 differenet spells (same action twice with Quickness) a round with no multi-action penalty and an extra 2d6 essence a round.  With Tactician you can fish even more for the Jokers or face cards and if you don't get them, you can improve your group with the other cards.  This is all at Veteran or maybe Heroic.

Now if Versitle Nit cannot be taken twice then you can't do the Blood of Heroes.  It isn't AS broken, but consider the above with Mage as well.

Edge Listing: Easy Magic: Quickness, Blood of Heroes, Power Surge, Command, Tactician.

I suppose you could do a Human Sorcerer with the above combination easier.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The blood of heroes trick with: humans, alakar, and goblinesh has been done, but GOOD catch on quickness!  Only on a 9 (take level headed and improved level headed for even more broken goodness, then its 2 or 3 9's!!)  Tactician would work as well, but be overkill  ;)  Versatile Nit can only be taken once, but take 1/2 blood from the Goblinesh book and you can take one edge per rank from your human ancestry!  In theory and using RAW you become a bennie generating factory: Quote from legends unleashed: "spend a bennie to gain the benefits of a joker" this should include bennies for everyone, thus spend a bennie to gain you and your team a bennie.  Blood of legends does this at double strength.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

Actually, In one game where someone pointed that out the GM said, "No" to gaining a bennie for everyone by spending one.  It seems the opinion was that you ONLY get the bennie if you actually DRAW the joker, not if you have a card ACT LIKE a joker.  That is where it fell apart.

I suppose you could argue that with Power Surge you only get it if you DRAW the joker using the same logic.

But, If not on the second part: Once Quickness is up nearly every card can "Act like a Joker" and give you the benifits of a Power Surge: +2d6 essence.  To a Caster that is a heavy shot of power.  To a Sorcerer, having +2 to 12 extra points in nearly every round (non-cumilitive), Can you say Applications Galore!

And bummber about the Versitle Nit, but you came up with a solution.  I just LIKE the idea of a small Sorcerer: "PHENOMINAL COSMIC POWER!, Ittty Bitty body," to paraphrase the Genie from Disney's Aladin.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

(Quick summary: 1-Jokers Wild is only triggered on an actual joker card; 2-Quickness only lets you guarantee an 8 on a raise not a face card)

Now back to the original and more lengthy response:

I'm sorry to be a Debbie Downer Matrix4b, but there is no way with that combo to guarantee a face card.  Raise effect on Quickness says not to draw lower than an 8, meaning you'll draw cards that are 8+ (8, 9, 10, J, Q, K, A, Jk). That does mean that you will see them much more frequently, but not all the time.  

Also, I've seen this attempted at a table before (both your way and Faradhii's way) and the way it resolves does not actually activate Jokers Wild.  Jokers Wild is a ruling for when a Joker card hits the table, and these methods give the effect of your having a Joker.  I know that you guys or others will argue with me about how 'Jokers Wild would trigger because you technically have a Joker' but the official ruling (coming down from Sean PF and others every time this is asked) and the J&L ruling on Jokers Wild is that it will only trigger when an actual card is played.  

Something else to keep in mind and that I'd ask you to consider before responding to this is: if you guys start trying to do something where you are drawing a Bennie for everyone every round then you are asking the GM to do it too, and you are asking the GM to throw things at you that will start trying to handle the fact that you are swimming in bennies. This would be the equivalent of poking a tiger with a stick because you are on top of a boulder that stands 6 feet high.  The result won't be pretty and will probably be painful for you and the GM... I only mention this because I've seen tables pulled apart by things like this.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Also, you're right Matrix4b with your second point.  

Anything that triggers on a joker only triggers on the card.

By 'gain the effect of' it means it places you in the turn order of a joker (with the inherent +2, though per table this may be nixed). Meaning you only get what is inherent in a joker card itself for any player.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

I wasn't even thinking about the whole, Spend a Bennie, get a bennie for the table bit.  No GM in their right mind would allow that.

And this being "Handbook of the Broken": I wouldn't even try the combination.

I also forgot about that the Raise Effect on Quickness was a 9 or better, which still left 9s and 10s.  Yes.  So a few points here:

1. Blood of Heroes makes you pay a benny for the effect, so a bit more balancing.

2. Quickness raise error: Yes, you keep getting cards if it is a 8 or less, BUT this does mean you are burning cards.  With Level Headed and Improved Level Headed AND Tactician AND a raised Quickness, you are Joker Fishing.  For the first shot in the battle (where Tactician comes in): You will have 3 cards for Improved Level Headed (one of which cannot be lower than a 9, and no, as a GM myself, I would rule that the first card drawn can't be lower than a 9, the rest from Level Headed CAN be).  You are looking at 3+Successes in cards to fish for the Joker.

3. Plenty of benifits other than the intended of getting Power Surge to work more often.

4. According to what you stated, only a natural Joker would give the effect of Power Surge, all other cards would not (face card improved to a joker, for instance).  Pitty, I was trying to come up with a good reason to get Power Surge as an Edge.  Looking at it with these rulings, I still think virtually ANY other magical edge is more valuble.  Having 3 to 6 cards to draw out of 54 gives a hell of a chance to draw a Joker though.  AND IF you allow a modified Face Card to give the Power Surge effect with a bennie, then you are one bennie away from having a Very Good chance of getting that +2d6 Essence.  But, as stated, you really have to focus your Edge spending to maximize this one effect.

 

Something that just occured to me as well: Quick (allows no less than a 6 to be drawn) does not stack with Level Headed and Improved Level Headed as ONLY your first card must be a higher than a 6.  The other cards can be what every.  Odd, I thought origionally that they would stack.

David

wilcoxon

I've always found all of the Wild Card Edges (like Power Surge) to be pretty worthless.

Reading the descriptions of Joker's Wild and Power Surge, they definitely only trigger when you are dealt a Joker.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

David, you are mis-reading and misrepresenting the rules and my rulings.

1) Quickness with a raise still lets you end up with an 8.  It says nothing lower than an 8.  So 8 or above. Quick will do the same but ends up with a 6 or above.

2) You draw for level headed (however many cards that lets you draw for which level of it you have) and if any of those cards is an 8 or better you take that card.  If none are an 8 or better you then keep drawing, but one at a time. The reason is that Level Headed causes you to draw an extra one or two cards at the start of your draw, not constantly.

3) Level headed does not stack with Tactician.

4) You cannot spend a Bennie to gain power surge.  As I already stated: you only gain the inherent effects of a joker with that edge (meaning the turn order and the +2 bonus, and if someone draws a joker they would be going before you as they have a higher quality joker same as two jokers hit you choose the higher suit)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

Chris,

I am sorry that I did not state things exactly as you did.  I was aware of the ruling or correct way of doing it.

"one of which cannot be lower than a 9" sorry had the number wrong, it should be an 8.  Basically, with Improved Level Headed, you draw 3 cards.  Keeping in mind what the first card is.  If that first card is lower than an 8 (or 6 with quick edge) then you draw until it is an 8+.   The extra cards from Level-Headed don't matter.  Sorry If I stated it in a clumsy manner.

"3) Level headed does not stack with Tactician."

Yes, I am aware of this.  With Tactician you roll Kn(Battle) and for each success and raise you get an extra card, which can be substituted for initiative for ANY player.  This is once and at the begining of the battle.  I did not mean to imply that it was stacking with Quick, Level-Headed, or the Raise effect of Quickness.  However, IF you got a Joker with that draw of cards, you could substitute the current Initiative card of any player (including yourself) with that Joker and because it is the actual card it WOULD trigger the Power Surge Edge.  THAT is what I meant by "Joker Fishing"  not to imply anything else or imply that anything less than having a Joker CARD as your initiative card would work.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

As to #4:  Yes, I am aware of this ruling.  Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise.  I feel that you SHOULD get the effects of a Joker Card in respects to Having the Edges of Blood of Heroes AND Power Surge (or the other 2 Wild Card edges).  To me the cost of the benny to get the joker from a face card is minimal and if you have taken the other edges you should gain the benifits of it.

I also feel that the edge that has the player spend a benny if they get a joker card to give everyone else at the table a benny is something that is NOT compatible with the other edges mentioned.  It only activates on the CARD.  Though, the use of Tactician to get the actual Joker card should sufice to juse any of the Wild Card edges.

Each Edge is very valuble and the effect that they have in combination should not be neadlessly nerfed.  It may seem powerful but compare it to being able to cast a High Magic Spell, or other Legendary Edges.  They are very powerful edges that are difficult to get.  It takes no less than 1 Legendary Edge before you qualify for Blood of Heroes, not to mention a racial requirement.  So it is a difficult thing to do.  Once you do, you SHOULD be legendary and powerful.  This is after all an EPIC setting. 

Of course it is up to each GM at their table to accept or deny ANY character ability prior to the player playing the character.  Sometimes that I feel that as a GM, we are needlessly limiting the players and as a player, that the GMs are nerfing some hard won and cleaver combination so that they don't have to deal with it.  Epic, becomes mundane.  As a GM, I feel that I should be giving more fun to the players rather than striving to take it away.

That said, I haven't created a character with that level of broken, prefering to have characters that are more real to me.  The most broken character that I had was Vhen, the Brinchie Korindian with no claws but he ended up maximizing his Parry and got Deny the Arrow.  So after LOTs of work (and a toughness of only d6 for the longest time) got his Parry up to a 14, so that with everything but magic he was very hard to hit: with Extra Effort and a bit of luck (and the GM spending Bennies) he got hurt a few times.  He still could not deal out much damage though.  On the sheet, he is Heroic rank.

David

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I hope that I didn't come off as attacking you or what you said.  I only meant to correct some of the errors in the specifics of what you were saying so that others who were/are/might get them confused had less chance to do so and hence less frustration when things didn't work exactly how they thought they would.

I understand your viewpoint on how you see things as less Epic and more mundane, and I believe we've had discussions about that in the past (and hope we continue to in the future as those can be some fun conversations) but thats why I'm glad we have the standing ruling that every GM can allow/dis-allow/change anything at their own table as long as players understand it might work differently elsewhere.

I'll see you in a few hours! Hoping you have fun at game tonight!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

Hey, No prob.  I didn't take it as attacking.  I tend to over explain and sometimes over complicate things.  Not to mention getting some base details wrong.  No worries.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

So the one step I was missing on my "Infinite Stat" build was how to endlessly maintain +infinite stats was how to stay awake forever.  In theory all staying awake permanently requires is a capped -6 vigor check which is easily passable with a say d12+100 vigor.  But I wanted something more.  Behold: the Offspring template. "Advanced Form": The subject never suffers a fatigue result unless voluntarily for the purposes of powering effects, etc.  and Done.  Ash will rename himself "The Protector" (all those offspring seem to have a one name policy, set himself up in Echer'Naught (Howard has granted him a very nice plot of land) with a 4 powers academy, and retire from the game.  But Archanon help ANYTHING that threatens that area.....  this toon can now safely kick Vanar in the balls while swatting down armies of Demons (all subject to DM approval of course, some kind of non contested anti magic zone would shut him down very well for example.  But anyone playing by the rules just loses.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Ash: Chosen of the Horn, Sergeant, Legios Heroes

Player: Faradhii
Race :    Eldakar   
Gender: Male
Age: 279
Rank: Legendary
Exp: 270
Resource Die: d12+1

Attributes
Agility: d10
Smarts: d12
Strength: d8
Spirit: d12 
Vigor: d12

Charisma: +2/+3/+4/+5
Pace: 8 (x2)
Parry: 18(9)
Toughness: 25(13) (+4 Champion, +4 Improved Arcane Resistance)
Essence: 25/25/25

Skills
Boating: d4V
Climbing: d4V
Fighting: d12 +3
Gambling: d4V
Healing: d4V
Intimidation: d4+2
Knowledge, Cosmology: d10
Knowledge, Magic: d10
Lockpicking: d4V
Notice: d6+2
Channeling: d12 +3
Faith: d12 +5
Sorcery: d12+5
Persuasion: d4+2
Piloting: d4V
Repair: d4V
Riding: d4V+4
Shooting: d8
Stealth: d4V+2 (+2 in woods)
Streetwise: d4V+2
Survival: d4V+3
Swimming: d4V
Taunt: d4V+2
Throwing: d4V
Tracking: d4V
The Way: d6

Hindrances
Heroic, Loyal, Greedy
Obligations, Major: Church of Light
Obligations, Major: Four Paths

Racial Abilities
Enemy: Darkness and Flame
Weakness: Black Iron/Blood Steel, +4 dmg
Magically Sensitive: +2 Detect Arcana
Gossamer: Strength costs 2x
Low Light Vision
Unearthly Fae Beauty: +2 Charisma

Possessions
Rangers Pack (+2 survival)
White Silver Plate (+6), +3 Armor, +3 Toughness, Improved Arcane Resistance, Brawny
Bracers: +1 Parry, Improved Level Headed, Quickdraw, Improved Block, One Against Many
Ranger Cloak (+1 stealth in woods), Elan
Galean Riding Saddle (+2 Riding), Horseman (+2 Riding, Mount/Dismount as Free Action)
Elven Way-Bread, Camping gear.
Almaarea (Master Breed Horse)
Rangers Clothing (+1 Stealth, +1 Survival)
Fine Clothing (+1 CH)
Fine Leather Boots: Fleet Footed, Improved Dodge, Improved Extraction, Acrobat, Speed.
Full Helm: Improved Mind's Eye, Alertness, Danger Sense.

Edges
Venerable
Educated: +1d6 Magic, +1d8 Cosmology
Novice:
5 : +1 Vigor
10 : Priest of Light
15 : Sorcerer
20 : Enlightened
Seasoned:
25 : Druid
30 : Familiar
35 : Mage
40 : Brilliant
45 : Training: +1d6 Channeling, +1d6 Fighting
Veteran:
50 : +1 Vigor
55 : "Battle Prep" Applications: Area, Linked - Quickness, Deflection (9 - 2 = 7 Ess.)
60 : Pattern Sight
65 : Lightbringer
70 : Sorcerous Clarity
Heroic:
75 : Heroic Surge
80 : Sorcerous Virtuosity (-1 Essence Per Spell)
85 : Celestial Star
90 : Familiar: Share Spell
95 : Familiar: +1 Strength
Legendary:
100 : Archon
110 : Paladin of Light
120 : Ascension: Spirit Made Flesh (Intangible, Fly at Pace)
130 : Ascension: Eternal (Effectively can only be killed by Decapitation with Black Iron/Blood Steel)
140 : Power of the Ascended: Summon Ally
150 : Power of the Ascended: Boost Trait
160 : +1 Vigor
170 : "Rain of Ash" High Magic: Blast (+3/-3) Dmg. to d10, (+5/-5) Hellstorm: 3 Medium or Large Templates AP 4.
180 : Archmage: 2x Powers, No Maintenance.
190 : Life in Balance: Earth Talker, Spirit Singer, Stream Channeler, Wind Whisperer.
200 : Life in Balance: Wave Rider: +1 Strength, +1 Vigor.
210 : Life in Balance: Stonewalker: Move Through Earth/Metal.
220 : Heroic Effort: Extra Effort Dice Auto Ace.
230 : Power of the Ascended: Shapechange.
240 : Offspring: Blood of the Star Father.  Invisibility, Teleport, Flight.
250 : Offspring: Immortal, Fast Regeneration & +2 vs. Shaken.
260 : Offspring: Inherent Gifts: Armor, Environmental Protection, Disguise.
270: Offspring: Advanced Form: Immune to Disease/Poison, never suffer fatigue unless voluntary.

Weapon                                     Range     Damage        Notes
"Neledh" Ash's Elvish Rapier        Close                    ST +1d6       +2 Parry, White Silver, +3 Parry, +5 Sorcery, +5 Faith, +3 Channeling, +15/+15/+15 Essence, +3 Fighting, +3 Damage, +3AP
Elvish Longbow                                     18/36/72            2d6+1            +3 Shooting, +3 Damage, +3AP, Marksman, Steady Hands, Farsight (36/72/144).

Power         Essence     Range         Duration     Effect
F) Boost Trait     1     Smarts         3/1         +2 trait (+4 on raise)
F) Summon Ally     2+     Smarts         3/1         Summons Celestial
S) Bolt         0-2     12/24/48     Instant         1-3 2d6 or 1 3d6 bolt
S) Deflection     1     Touch         3/1         -2 to be hit (-4 on raise)
S) Obscure     1     Spirit         3/1         Provides Concealment
S) Cantrip     0     Smarts         1 Minute     Minor Magical Effects
C) Dispel     2     Smarts         Instant         Opposed Roll (-2 If Different School)
C) Shapechange     2+     Self         1 Minute     Assume Other Form
S) Quickness     3     Touch         3/1         Add 2nd Action With No Penalty
F) Succor    1    Touch        Instant        Removes Fatigue/Shaken
F) Sanctify    10    Special        Permanent    Repels Evil on an Area
S) Blast        2-6    24/48/96        Instant        2d6/3d6 Heavy Weapon
C) Dispel    3    Smarts        Instant        Dispels Magic

Description
6'3, 160#, Violet cat eyes, Platinum Hair, Pale Complexion, Cheerful
Notes
Ranked first in the Eldakar magic academy. Initiate of the third rank (use of Faith, Sorcery, and Channeling). Finds it amusing that other races always mispronounce his name. After 279 years, Ash finds most things amusing. Insults rarely rouse him as, typically, the insulter will be dead "soon". A German Shepard he named "Bait" followed him home. This fueled an interest in druidic lore both as an intellectual pursuit and a way to protect his new friend.
Chosen of the Horn: +1 Benny, +2 on opposed rolls vs. Darkness & Flame, Champion (+2 dmg./+2 toughness vs. evil), +2 to all Spirit and Vigor rolls to soak, resist poison, disease, and being shaken. Call on the Unicorns power.
Hero of the Lorelei Border (+1 CH in Lorelei).
Hero of the Prelacy Battle: (+1 CH for those who know this, 50% chance)
Defining Interests / Languages
Languages: Galean, Fae, Camonere, Childer, Goblinesh, Brin, Kalinesh, Malakaran, Shayae, Dwarvish
Detect Arcana: Range - Sight, Duration - Concentration, Spirit +2

Dúnedhel Vala!

wilcoxon

Quite an impressive build.  I don't recognize Offspring (the last 4 advances).  Where is that from?

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Legends unleashed, template just before the monster section in the back of the book.  DM's may allow the character to take 1 Offspring benefit per advance as a show that their Offspring blood is coming to the fore.

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I'd like to point out that generally people are only allowed ONE casting type.  Sometimes a second is allowed but generally not.  So that build would have been nixed as soon as you added the second caster type.  Not to mention the third.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Grandfathered in, this is an OLD character.  At the time SPF himself said multiple casting types were allowed with GM permission.  He was actually a very reasonable, though powerful, toon until Richard stopped running.  At that point I just started playi9ng around.

JR (Darcassian, one of the original backers)  actually did a multi caster before I did.

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Yea, and I've seen other multi-casters (I'm going to clarify here that anything which accesses the Powers list is what I mean by caster). But in general it's a min-maxer path to take multiple casting backgrounds; hence why it's generally not allowed. If a GM allows it though (and they are a good GM) any sane player would be terrified.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Oh God yes!!  The power creep is enormous.  Ash is safely "retired" in Echer'Naught teaching young caster wannabes how not to blow off their own feet!  (TY Howard for using my "Battle Preparedness" spell in Mage schools!  :)  )  Ash was basically unplayable at about 2 steps into Heroic tier once Heroic Surge and sorcerous virtuosity came online.

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Hey faradhii,

Echer'Naught welcomes Ash with open arms. Can we chat via email and formalize the school, Ash's role in the politcts, etc? I really want to feature Ash as a major NPC component in my universe. Ash deserves it. Hey, you are more than welcome on the Battle Prep nod. I only wish I could do more!

And yes, Ash needed to be retired. Cause, reasons. But still much beloved.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Sure, I'll do a write up and send it to you along with some sketches.  Possibly I can get Keith to help with drawings as I am, shall we say, artistically challenged!!  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Awesome!

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Throning_Karma
Throning_Karma's picture

Any room for a Pyschic bear here? ;) 

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity.

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

There is room for everyone in the handbook of the broken!

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

The animal would have to be a Soulbright or Life-Touched animal.  Familiars can go that route. I have a Dire Wolf familiar who is an Adept of the Jade Flame... The Phoenix Moth Grove menagerie is very interesting sometimes

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I give you: "Bait"  (It's Howard's fault, he gave him to me in my very first game playing Ash)!

Bait: Ash's German Shepherd Familiar

Race :    Canine   
Gender: Male
Age: 2
Rank: Legendary
Exp: 150
Resource Die: 0

Attributes
Agility: d10
Smarts: d8
Strength: d12
Spirit: d12
Vigor: d12
Charisma: 0
Pace: 10
Parry: 13
Toughness: 11
Essence: 10(25)

Skills
Climbingd8
Fightingd12+4
Intimidation: d6
Notice: d8
The Way: d12
Stealth: d10
Survival: d6
Tracking: d6

Hindrances
Heroic, Loyal, Stubborn
Enemy: Darkness and Flame: Minor
Outsider

Racial Abilities
Go for the Throat: on a raise bite hits least armored spot on target.
Fleet footed: roll d10 for running
Soulbright
   
Edges
+1 Smarts
Luck
5 : +1 Vigor
10 : Brawny
15 : Great Luck
20 : Adept
Seasoned:
25 : +1 Spirit
30 : Acrobat
35 : Soul Bonded White Silver Teeth Caps.
40 : Unarmored Warrior
45 : Frenzy
Veteran:
50 : Improved Frenzy
55 : +1 Spirit
60 : Common Bond
65 : Student of Forms: Teeth
70 : First Strike
Heroic:
75 : Heroic Strike
80 : Paladin of Light
85 : Improved First Strike
90 : Improved Soul Bonded White Silver Teeth Caps
95 : Greater Soul Bonded White Silver Teeth Caps
Legendary:
100 : Warrior Adept of the Jade Flame
110 : Tough as Nails
120 : Heroic Surge
130 : Force of Will (spend essence for +2 to skill check max +8)
140 : Improved Tough as Nails
150 : +1 spirit

Weapon                 Range         Damage         Notes
Bite                 Close         ST +1d6    
White Silver Teeth Caps        Close         ST +1d8+3     +2 vs. Evil, +15 Ess.
+3 fighting, +2 Parry, +3 damage,  Invisibility Self  Duration: 3  -4/-6
Flight     Touch     Duration: 3     Flight
Succor     Touch     Instant     Remove Fatigue/Restore Consciousness
           
           
Power         Essence         Range         Duration     Effect
Armor         2         Touch         3/1         +2/+4
Boost Trait     2         Smarts         3/1         +2/+4
Smite         2         Touch         3/1         +2/+4
               
Description
Stands 3' at the shoulder, weighs in at 170#.

Notes
Chosen of the Horn: +1 Benny, +2 on opposed rolls vs. Darkness & Flame, Champion.
+2 to all Spirit and Vigor rolls to soak, resist poison, disease, and being shaken. Detect Evil.
Wild Card, Call on the Unicorn's Power.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

And Yes David, you are welcome to write up "Bearnabus"!!  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I find it interesting how many ideas revolve around taking multiple casting types, and since the rule of thumb is always "no more than one casting type", much of the headaches are/can be avoided.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Always blame me. ;)

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

faradhii
faradhii's picture

My familiar only has ONE casting type  :)  Of course the idea that a familiar (exception of pixies) CAN have a casting type seems inherently broken as well!

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Howard, YOU ARE BLAMED!  Now for something, completely different.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

swampfoxib wrote:

I find it interesting how many ideas revolve around taking multiple casting types, and since the rule of thumb is always "no more than one casting type", much of the headaches are/can be avoided.

I think the main reason for a lot of multi-casting type characters is not power gaming - I think it is because it is explicitly disallowed in most settings but Shaintar changes that to "with GM approval".

The only recent character I built with multiple casting types was Sorcerer/Artificer (Alchemist).  The concept was a sorcerer with artificing abilities.  However, the Edges for artificer pretty much require you to take Alchemist (so the character has alchemist but will likely never take any more anything for it).

In general, I find alchemist to be the least useful and least interesting "casting" style in Shaintar (and most games).

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Alchemy is actually very powerful in Shaintar.  Especially if the alchemist is allowed to create a stockpile of their potions. Since they don't have to be present when the potions are used and unlike dwarven wrights can make as many as they take the time to make, an alchemist can have some of the most powerful effects in a game if they are allowed to. Also, as Artificing is open to any caster type, but alchemists are able to temper things to better effect That's where their powers can be even more showcased.  

Every casting type has strengths and weaknesses. And every casting type has things which are designed to make them stand out from the others and more powerful. An alchemist is usually more of a support character than the big brawny sword swinging ogre, and the artificing edges they are allowed are supposed to allow for that.

Yes Savage Worlds allows for more than one casting type as a system.  But Shaintar was not initially designed for that kind of play-style. It is evident that that was the case when you look at what those casting edges grant. With one level up you gain multiple spells, multiple level ups worth of Essence, and access to a whole new set of spells/enchantments/edges..... Taking more than one casting type is inherently broken and whether the player is willing to admit it or not they know that when they try to take it.  That's why most players who try to do that do it.

And taking alchemy as a second casting type because alchemists get the better edges and abilities in artificing is exactly the same as taking Sorcerer for access to applications or Druidic for access to the Familiar line etc... It's a power pull.  You don't need to have alchemy to be a great Artificer. It's nice because it maximizes the effects you can create, but nobody NEEDS it.

It is ultimately up to the GM whether they allow such things, but I generally won't because it's a twink move.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

wilcoxon

Actually, alchemists are completely limited in what potions they can make.  They must effectively pre-allocate their PP to what powers they will cast well ahead of time.  Their only advantage is that the alchemist does not have to be present when one of their potions is used.

Also, I would disagree that Shaintar was not designed for multiple casting types.  The main rulebook specifically mentions taking multiple casting types (just limiting by saying something like "it is uncommon and up to the GM").  This is far more open/permissive than core Savage Worlds which specifically limits a character to one AB.

Also, I would strongly disagree that an artificer without the edges with alchemy as a prereq can be "great".  I would never consider taking artificer without those Edges (unless it was just for flavor and not core to the character mechanics).

On the other hand, a human artificer can pretty easily become broken in its own right (gaining the heroic/legendary artificing edges WAY earlier).

Matrix4b

I disagree.  Alchemists, true, have a limited number of potions (spells) but they get 3 instead of 2 from casting as does Druid and Sorcerer.  So they get an extra spell to start off with.  But, as said, it is a class that is a support role, they can have any number of potions ahead of time.  Need a Quick Healing, hand out healing potions.  Give your fighter a big boost on his terms: Armor, Deflection, and Boost Fighting potion.  Boom, your fighter has just become several xp levels better and hard to stop. 

As far as the limited number of potions.  I always read it as you are limited by the Essence Level when you are creating the potions.  Once created the potions stay and you regain your essence through the normal 1 pt per hour.  It is rarely needed for an Alchemist to have more than 15 Essence.  AND when you add in the Novice Edge Elixerium you get a one shot every game of one potion that you may need.  That one potion can be any spell on the Alchemist List, if you have it as one of your spells or not.  That is some potent stuff.  So, yes you could have an Alchemist with 10 Essence create a Greater Healing on the fly to give to someone.  WITHOUT having to take the Spell.

Think on that a moment.  True, you do need to be more than an Alchemist to carry this off.  Also, You can take Expanded Understanding as an Edge to get a power outside of the Alchemist list.

Though it is total twink, I wish that applications can be worked into potions, which would allow for a potion to be combined from two spells.  Armor/Deflection, Boost Strength/Warrior's Gift, Boost Fighting/Boost Strength.  Or even, because Boost works with itself, several Boost potions drank in one round.  Each made with a raise (you would know ahead of time), to give +2 die types, +2 die types, +2 die types, Suddenly your Goblin Alchemist that had only a d6 fighting and a d4 strength, has a d12 fighting and a d12 Strenth.  For a few rounds.  All potions could be drank in one round (multi-action penalty means nothing when you are not rolling).

Now imagine the same potions buffing your Ogre Warrior that is already buffed from just being a warrior.  Give him Quickness and Speed and Warrior's Gift for Improved Sweep, ect.

It can get broken fast.  True, you burn up a lot of potions but hey, you can take down the Elder Vampire and not get slaughtered.

 

Matrix4b

Two most effective powers for an Alchemist to take: Warrior's Gift and Boost Trait.  Blast is a good one to branch out into as well.  Also, never underestimate what Cantrip can do.

How about a potion that will create a mist that levitates everything under 10 pounds in an area?  For minutes?

Enemy casting a ritual with components: No problem.  Need a distraction, no problem.  Toss the potion into an area with a bunch of caltrops: Floating caltrops.  More a visual/movement hazard than anything but that nusiance can be worth it.  Now, RAW, you would need to Expanded Awareness for Cantrip (I still don't understand why as it should be a spell for all classes).

wilcoxon

I, and my GM, have always read alchemist as allocating those points in the potion until it is used.  If you do regain PP after creating the potion (but before it is used) normally, that makes a MASSIVE difference (and seems very broken to me).  Does anyone official care to comment on which interpretation of alchemy is correct?

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