Handbook of the Broken.

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faradhii
faradhii's picture

@Matrix4b: the key there is time, with Archmage and power of the ascended you can cast boost trait until you run out of essence and simply maintain the spells suffering no maintenance penalties at all.  Thus:  say you have 20- essence at legendary:  cast 10 boost trait spells and maintain them at no penalty.  regenerate your 20 essence and keep going.  For added fun take the rapid recharge line.

@ Zadmar: OK, got ya!  hadn't thought of that, but the infinite stat rule does apply, the only thing that can really hurt you is the one on the sorcey die for shaken and double ones for backlash.  Both are fairly avoidable by simply spending bennies.  As you ge tlow on bennies, just stop casting till you get your bennies back.  IE: I role a 1 on sorcery die and am shaken: I make a smarts roll and easily pass with a simple double boost trait smarts.  I roll double ones and have to soak a wound: NP as by then I surely have 1d12+ god knows how much vigor.

One of the only questions I have is how does "maintaining a spell" work?  Does the act of sleeping stop maintenance?  In which case the strategy drops from "A" an abomination to about a high "B" broken but not absurdly so.  Though arguments could be made that with rapid recharge you could boost your vigor fast enough that you could make the fatigue checks to simply stay awake forever!!  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Hmm:  maintaining a spell is a free action, but the examples of free action all seem to be active things so I suspect you cannot maintain a spell while sleeping.

However: under conditions, lack of sleep, it simply says that you have to make a vigor check every 12 hours at a cumulative -2 penalty with a cap of -6.  So, yes, simply NEVER GO TO SLEEP!! 

Heck anyone with a +10ish vigor (our lovable Ogres can get close) can simply ignore sleep.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Throning_Karma
Throning_Karma's picture

Where is this Mixed Bloodline edge??? I cannot find it.

To give real service you must add something which cannot be bought or measured with money, and that is sincerity and integrity.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

It is in the Goblinesh Guidebook, page 14

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

faradhii wrote:

Hmm:  maintaining a spell is a free action, but the examples of free action all seem to be active things so I suspect you cannot maintain a spell while sleeping.

However: under conditions, lack of sleep, it simply says that you have to make a vigor check every 12 hours at a cumulative -2 penalty with a cap of -6.  So, yes, simply NEVER GO TO SLEEP!! 

Heck anyone with a +10ish vigor (our lovable Ogres can get close) can simply ignore sleep.

At least until you die of Soul Drain.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Why would you ever have to soul drain?  You regain 1 PP per hr. (faster with edges) irregardless of whether you sleep or not.  Now with enough bonus to spirit (Eldakar rule of course) you can (mostly) soul drain to your heart's content.

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

faradhii wrote:

Why would you ever have to soul drain?  You regain 1 PP per hr. (faster with edges) irregardless of whether you sleep or not.  Now with enough bonus to spirit (Eldakar rule of course) you can (mostly) soul drain to your heart's content.

You'd have to soul drain because maintaining any spell requires more essence.  Usually at 1ess/rnd.  So you'd be soul draining for the maintenance which means every six seconds making a roll at -1, and I'm certain eventually you'll roll 1,1 which is a failire no matter what bonuses you have.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

swampfoxib wrote:

 

faradhii wrote:

Why would you ever have to soul drain?  You regain 1 PP per hr. (faster with edges) irregardless of whether you sleep or not.  Now with enough bonus to spirit (Eldakar rule of course) you can (mostly) soul drain to your heart's content.

You'd have to soul drain because maintaining any spell requires more essence.  Usually at 1ess/rnd.  So you'd be soul draining for the maintenance which means every six seconds making a roll at -1, and I'm certain eventually you'll roll 1,1 which is a failire no matter what bonuses you have.

 

 

Nope: This is why this trick only works with Eldakar Archmages.  "Power of the Ascended" Eldakar racial edge lets you pick one power to cast without using essence, if the power has a maintenance cost, you can maintain it indefinitely without spending essence.  The maintanance penalties would eat you alive EXCEPT as an archmage you ignore all maintenance penalties.  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Guess that's true.  The other thing to remember is that you need 3 Legendary edges plus all of their requirements and being an Eldakar to boot.  

I would say that if you are seeing someone do this with their character then you need to make them choose a specific use of Boost-Trait, much like you have to do when using Applications.  Choose one trait to boost per expenditure of this edge and that re-balances the build to being maybe a C or D.

But it's also true that you are talking at the lowest a 120 experience point character, probably more than that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

I think that the key words here are "Power of the Acended".  This kinda implies that you are Acended.  So, if you are Acended then it stands to reason that you have such power.  A High Magic Dispel will still ruin your day.  Especially if you put Easy Magic and Hard to resist on it.  If you are doing this for Boost Trait and repeating the Boost Trait until you have an almost infinite stat/skill then yes, I would throw something else at you.  Such as locking you in ice/stone/ect for storage later.  There are always ways of dealing with obnoxious overuse of the rules.  Also, remember, If you can make it, so can the GM.  How would you feel if you went up against someone with an infinite toughness..Betrayed and that the GM is being unfair, I will bet.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Thought exercise guys!!!  GOD, if Anyone were to actually TRY this crap...

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

Ok: Artifacts:

I know that this may have come up but here goes:

How Powerful should an Artifact be, both PC and Villian.  Now to get to this point you need 3 edges, in which you gain: Soulbonded: 2 "Pluses" from the Artificer abilities, Improved Soulbonded: 1 Power and another Artifice "Plus", Greater Soulbond: Another power and another "Plus or ability" from the Artificer

Total Prior to Artifact level: 4 "Pluses/Abilities" from the Artificer and 2 Powers.  With the limitation that any one ability cannot be above +3, meaning if you add to Armor the maximum bonus can be +3.  This is all prior to becoming an Artifact.

Now for the Broken Part: Can you use the Artificer Edge on Soulbonded items?  Does this break the cap of +3 max bonus? 

For really broken: A Dwarf Wright Master item, Artificed, Greater Soulbonded, Preferred Weapon, Heirloom that you then turn into an artifact?  With the right combinations you can become unstoppable.  Granted, it does take lots of edges but....the results are monsterous, especially since one of your "Powers" can be Warrior's Gift and another be an Edge. 

Is there a ruling if Dwarf Wright stuff can be Artificed?  Hmmm.  The Dwarf Wright stuff is a bit too fluid for my taste, but that genie is out of the bottle for one player that I have in my game.  Musing a bit on what can be done once that genie is out.

David Forby

 (PS: this is also only addressing a "legal" build, The question also is how powerful should you make an Artifact that is meant to be a plot point in the game, minor one but important?  as a GM."

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I never much cared for the artifact edge myself as a rules exercise because of this statement: "The GM is in charge of whatever happens at this point".  While it is, of course, the GMs call in every aspect of his/her campaign it is rare that an edge specifically gives control to the GM.  Even Archon simply specifies the GM has to approve it (which, really, applies to any edge).  Artifact basically gives teh GM the power to spend your edge.  While it is a GREAT edge in a normal game, for breaking things Artifact is unusable because the premise of broken is that you are using Rules as Written (RAW).

Up to Artifact, the soul bond line is definitely abusable (look at Ogre lawn Mower for a simple example).

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

And FYI, the GM has final say on the Dwarf-Wright stuff too.  Start saying no to your problem player if you have to.  That is also part of the job of being in charge of a table.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

J_Dains

Ok, I'm a bit confused though... everyone says that Unarmored Warrior is 'broken'... but I've never seen any kind of discussion -why- it is broken, it's basically the D&D equivalent for DR for barbarians... how is it 'broken' as say to the same ogre or whatever taking heirloom full plate??

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The trouble with unarmored warrior (loincloth/bikini hero/heroine) is not the edge itself which simply allows a free action soak roll to get rid of wounds suffered.  the issue is combining it with the Ogre race which can easily achieve 15+ tougness with +4 to soak rolls.  So:

You do 30 poin ts of damage to our Ogre hero with unarmored warrior.  He has, say, a 16 toughness in his nighty.  so he takes 1`4 damage equaling 3 wounds.  he has the appropriate edges to give him +4 to soak rolls.  So he rolls a Vogor check as a free action to soak 3 wounds.  He has a d12 vigor and +4 to the roll.  the odds are fairly good that he'll take either no wounds or 1 wound, then he can push with a benny....  It's kinda broken  :)  (which is why it's in this handbook in the first placce!!  :)  )

 

Dúnedhel Vala!

J_Dains

If you look at the edge, you -DON'T- get to use edges that add to your soak rolls. 

and Full Plate would give you enough extra toughness to equate to a 2 wound difference between that and having just the edge.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I respectfully disagree, although SPF or the flock may have posted something.

Reading the edge directly from page 57 of Beasts and Barbarians, it simply states you "can make a free soak roll for each wounding attack as long as they are unarmored".  Unless there's something I'm missing magic and edges that modify toughness would count.  "To get the bonus, a character must have no torso armor on (shields are allowed).  The armor spell should work just fine as should edges like Battle hardened (+2 to soak rolls) and if you're human or half blooded goblinesh the Resilient Human edge for another +2 to soak.  Of course I may not have read some ruling or other that was posted.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

 

  1. For the edge to work you don't wear armor but that does not eliminate the concept of buffs or other magic.

 

The problem is, many folks are not looking at the edge... key factors.. for that 'free soak' you just get your vigor roll, no magic or edges... which negates point #1 made by Matrix.

 

 

Ok, I don't have the text availible to me, so you get your strait Vigor check, with no other edges applying to the Vigor roll, yes? Boost Trait does increase the Vigor check. So at the very least you have that. Here is a number break down:

 

Most Tough races start off with a +1 die or +2 die for Vigor. This also serves to increase the maximum beyond d12.

 

Boost Trait, gives a +1 or +2 die. Base d12+1 with 2 bonus is d12+3

 

With this a character's Vigor can get up to d12+3 maximum, only considering 1 Boost Trait roll. So your minimum roll is 4. So you will automatically soak 1 level of damage from any time you are damage and will on average soak 2 wounds (avg roll on d12 is 6+4=10, that's 2 wounds) and on a good roll say 7 to 11 your total would be 11 to 14, so nearly 3 wounds soaked.

 

 

Now let's take what it would take to harm you to that level: Base Toughness (not counting other edges or even racial abilities) The Toughness of a d12+3 would be 8, ½ d12 + ½ of 3 and then +2 for Toughness formula. So you have a toughness of 8. So now, let's math it:

 

8 to be shaken, 12 for 1 wound, 16 for 2 wounds, 20 for 3 wounds. So, you will always soak 1 wound, and have a very good chance of soaking 2 or even 3, with out an Ace roll. This means that on a Damage roll (no AP or any ability to bypass things) a 16 to 20 damage roll is needed to harm you, with each hit. No tactics, nothing will be able to bypass it. Bows and Crossbows do 2d6, 3d6 on a raise, same with Bolt. Jet (on a raise) does 2d8, so even with Jet, you are looking at best: 2d8+1d6. With out an Ace on damage the max damage would be 19 (7,7,5). So, an Ace on damage would be needed every time to ensure any sort of lasting damage. You are not down any bennies, so if you need to re-roll your vigor, or just “Extra Effrot” your Vigor roll, you won't take damage. Even with your one concern with this, the point is hardly negated. These numbers are also for getting hit in melee or ranged, it doesn't matter. As a matter of fact you are better off going to melee due to a higher potential of damage if you have a strong PC/NPC going up against the “Unarmored Warrior”

 

 

So by the Numbers, this isn't overpowered?

 

 

  1. In your example: Heirloom platemail vs this edge.  Well Armor you can bypass, with a bypass armor or even bypass skull.  This edge cannot be bypassed.  Also, wearing the armor does require a minimum strength and cost of the armor.  Unarmored Warrior does not require weight, cost, put on time, and can't be bypassed.

 

 

The armor is like getting to 'automatically soak' 2 wounds over a character not in that armor, as compared to having to roll for it... so for Matrix's #2 point the ballance is Can't be Bypassed versus no 2 automatic successes.

 

 

Ok, with Heirloom Armor: Say Dwarven Plate&Chain the best availible (+6, -5 protection) Say your character has this. Now you have a character with a higher toughness: d12+3 Vigor, makes 8 base then +6, for a Toughness of 14 (ogre's with size bonus +2 is 16). So with a 16 Toughness: On a damage roll of 16 you are Shaken, on a 20 you have a wound, which you soak, on a 24 damage you take it. True this is one step beyond the previous example BUT a clever person would “Bypass Armor” taking the -5 to the attack roll (and possibly reducing the chance of a raise) but at the same time. A Wild Attack or a Taunt, can bring this down to a -3, both you bring it to a -1 to bypass, thus gainging back your potential for a bonus d6 to damage. The point here is that you have the option and there are builds that make it easier to bypass armor, Such as Marksman, Fencer, ect. So those edges can come into play. Also, if you do damage they MUST spend a benny to soak, eventually soaking will run them out of bennies. So by the numbers, you are a little tougher to hurt but once hurt it takes it away. And you need to have your strength up higher to wear the armor. So there are many factors here coming together to make the Armor more acceptable. Roleplaying-wise you will sink like a stone in water, someone can steal the armor, the Unarmored Warrior stuff cannot be taken away via tactics or roleplaying, it just IS. So you take out some of the roleplaying and tactics out of the game.

 

 

3.  An automatic soak for every wound is very powerful.  With this edge you will pump up your Vigor as high as possible but lets go with hard numbers.  Vigor is usually a d4 to d12.  So on the low end you have a 1 in 4 chance of soaking a wound, instantly, no chance of being shaken even.  On the high end it turns it around, you have a 1 in 4 chance of NOT soaking one wound.

 

As far as Matrix's #3 point... You can boost your Parry up by focusing on doing that, spending your edges and such to that focus, so I guess a Brinchie or Korindian with 14+ parry is extremely broken too? Or are you trying to say that an Ogre with this edge can boost his Toughness up higher than an Oger taking the same toughness boosting edges, and adding the toughness from the armor?

 

 

Yes, Parry can be boosted, but an area affect still requires an Agility roll, Ranged attacks aren't Parried, and Most Magic attacks aren't parried. Yes, the Korindian's have at Veteran level of edge: Deny the Arrow, but I have had it pointed out to me that does nothing for Magic or Arcfire weapons (they are too fast and are considered magical). If you do not get a parry you can spend bennies to re-roll or Extra Effort to hit but you cannot use Extra Effort to do more damage. So, with a High Parry, more than likely you are betting on not getting hit, rather than a high toughness. Say A Brinchie: d12+2, Acrobat (+1), Greater Acrobat (Veteran edge +2), Staff/spear (2 handed and a +1), Bracers +1. So with this you have a parry of 7+2+1+1 for a parry of 11. Now let's Magic the Bracers to a +2, and Magic the weapon's parry giving a +2 as well. This will yeild, with equipment, a Parry of 13. A Korindian could have a Parry of +4 to that yeilding a 17. There may be magical bonuses that may bring this up beyond this. So yes, a High Parry is possible. A Fighting die of d8 is not unreasonable, magic to give a +4 to hit is not too hard, so your range is 5 to 11 with out an Ace. Extra Effort would give another +5 max, making it a 16, with out an Ace. Now, pull some tactics, Taunt/Intimidate/Fast talking Persausion can lower the Parry by 2, if they went “All Out” then it's lowered by 2 more, making that 17, now a 13. Yes it's hard but once you hit, a Vigor of d8 is usually the most I see such a character have, having spend points on vigor. Bringing the damage level to hurt them back down. Can't wear plate and have Acrobat bonuses so you have only a +2 max for armor: so you are looking at an 8 or so for Toughness, maybe pushed up to 10 with a good Boost Vigor spell. So a 2d6 damage would have a better chance of damaging. My point is, yes you can manipulate the numbers to make it hard. There is always a way but Toughness is inherently more valuble than Parry and there are tactics that can be used against you, not so with a free soak roll.

 

 

 

 

I notice they picked on the Ogre for having a high toughness... well that exact same Oger with the toughness boosting things in full plate would what would have to be compared to the ogre with the edge instead..

 

 

I tried to make it general to race. A race that has a Vigor Boost would be prime here. The Ogre just simply emphasizes why it's broken with the size bonus, espesically if you add the Toughness bonus from Behemouth. But really any race that has a bonus to Vigor would greatly benefit from this edge to make it overbalanced.

 

 

 

You say that “x is equal to x due to the virtual automatic successes you get” but you are not giving number comparisons. I have tried to do so to illistrate why it's broken. I wanted to take a logical point of view, there are a number of issues that I did not take into account that can server to emphasize why this edge wont work in Shaintar.

 

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The edge is actually VERY useful for (and not at all broken) for those less hardy races.  My Familiar, for example, qualifies for it, so I took it with Rich's blessing.  Unfortunately my war horse does not due to needing to be a wild card.  I would definitely like to know why people seem to think the free soak roll is strictly a vogor check without benefiting from any other edges (resilient and Battle hardened as prime examples).  I find nothing to suggest they would not apply.

Dúnedhel Vala!

J_Dains

Loincl oth Hero/Bikini

Heroine

Requirements: Wild Card, Novice, Agility

d8+, Vigor d6+

Comics, movies and books always depict

bare-chested barbarians fighting hordes

of enemies without suffering the slightest

scratch. They also show scantily dressed

amazons engaging in savage melees with

bug-eyed creatures and finishing their

fight with no more than tousled hair.

This Edge allows you to emulate this cinematic

way of fighting. A hero or heroine

with this Edge can make a free soak

roll for each wounding attack as long as

they are unarmored. To get the bonus, a

character must have no torso armor on

(shields are allowed). If he wants, he can

wear bracers, greaves or a helm, but these

are only cosmetic, granting no armor bonus.

A hero can not have this Edge and

the Iron Jaw Edge.

B&B Golden Edition pg 67

As far as I can tell, the 'armor' spell means you count as Armored, BTW

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

That does raise an interesting question: Loincloth Hero blocks Iron Jaw. Shaintar doesn't have Iron Jaw, but it has Battle Hardened and Resilient which work the same way. Should Unarmored Warrior block those Edges instead?

The best Soak-boosting Edge is Elan, but that only applies when a benny is spent, so it wouldn't work with Loincloth Hero or Unarmored Warrior.

J_Dains

Iron Jaw is the only soak boosting edge in B&B, so one would read it by intent to mean (doesn't work with soak boosting edges)

J_Dains

Okay, you all want to talk math.. here's some pretty simple math for ya

assuming two iodentical ogres with 15 toughness... give one Unarmored Warrior(A), give one 5 armor and a +2 soak edge(B)

goal is to remain with no wounds...  for simplicity, instead of going into the odds of getting an ace on a roll, let's go with that if the TN is more than 10, you'll use a benny to push.

Damage 15  A Shaken, B no effect / Damage 20 A Soak TN 4, B Shaken

Damage 24 A Soak  TN 8, B Soak TN 2 / Damage 28 A Soak TN 10, B Soak TN 6

So the edge only really give the 'bennie advantage' in the bracket of 24-32 Damage

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I have to agree that the edge isn't as unbalanced as it seems nor as it's been made to seem.  Good luck playing with it and let us know how it goes!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Remember, this particular bit of forum hell is all about RAW (rules as written) the fact that only 1 edge is prohibited specifically is not within the scope of this forum to jusdge.  (That being said, the spirit is obvious and thus no sane GM would allow Resilient and/or Battle hardened!  :)  )

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

It's been a while, but some tricks I suggested to Mark for the upcoming Shay'anor game this Sunday bear some fleshing out (sorry in advance Howard!!!)

Note:  All of this crap is a THOUGHT EXERCISE and Howard, you should slap Mark (and probably me for showing him how to do it).

 

Without further ado I present

"You and what army?  Oh....  THAT army....  that's a GOOD army......"

Preferred race human (though any race can work at it slowly but it only really comes on line for them at heroic and legendary)

required Stats, edges & skills:

Novice: spirit D8, Druid, Familiar, Epic Destiny: Sidekick (yes, I know the text about specific edges such as sidekick being subject to DM approval).  Beast Master (Raptor), Beast Bond, Common Bond, Leadership edges. Knowledge Battle d6, Knowledge Cosmology D8.

Note: At this point there is an infinite loop potential:  Basically have your sidekick be human and use Epic Destiny to take a sidekick, repeat.  Infinite sidekicks indirectly under your control.  But I digress.

Your sidekick follows your advances exactly as outlayed above (excepting the sidekick infinite loop) instead substituting followers with his epic destiny pick and taking luck and great luck instead of leadership edges.  Progress to seasoned having your sidekicks followers take: Luck, Great Luck, Druid, familiar as they level up from rolling 5-6 on d6.

Level to seasoned: At seasoned you will have: Yourself, Your sidekick, Your familiar, Your beast companion, Your sidekicks familiar, your sidekicks 5 followers, your sidekicks beast companion, your sidekicks followers 5 familiars, your sidekicks 5 followers beast companions.  All with common bond/beast bond for a total of approximately (varies by carryover bennies, but....) 48 bennies that can be tossed about willy nilly.

At seasoned use Epic destiny to take Followers yourself and have your sidekick take Warband adding 10 more to your army.

At Veteran use epic destiny to take Warband yourself and your sidekick takes hero's company for 25 more followers (and your sidekicks followers gain an advance, become wild cards, etc.

At Heroic it caps out with you using epic destiny to take Hero's Company for another 20 followers.

At completion you will have: You, Your sidekick, 10 wild card followers, 50 extra followers, 62 wild card familiars, 62 extra beasts.  Make sure to make the familiars and beasts raptors so they are less likely to get killed.

Rough total of bennies available to any ally (not counting carryovers, chosen of the horn, etc.) = 408.

 

Have fun storming the castle!!!

 

 

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Fun mental exercise, but any of that can be vetoed by a GM when she/he sees the player going that far.  So if I had to rank it: maybe a C since there is a fair amount that could get through before the GM cut it off But not enough that the GM wouldn't be able to wrangle it back under control.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Yeah, at some point you just start AOEing the little guys.  Or dump them down a well.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

One, RAW (rules as Written) that I found is rather simple.  Dwarf with Battle Hardened, and Elan.  This will give a +4 to soak roals when you spend a benny.  This means that anything beyond a wound is what your are actually rolling for.  As  a Dwarf you start with a Toughness of d8 (so a very good chance that you can soke 2 wounds and your base Toughness is at least 6.)  So, working the numbers at a minimum.  Damage would need to be 14 to be much of a danger.  Yes, it will suck your bennies.  But Elan+Battle Hardened is a powerful combination.  There are a few other edges that can increase your roll as well.

This is very big and it is at minimum a Seasoned character due to Edge requirements. 

Immagine your Battle Hardened, Elan, Ogre Tank.  Very hard to actually hurt.  Sure, hit him all you want, but getting past the Toughness and the soak roll, good luck.

Matrix

faradhii
faradhii's picture

So I was deciding on what to spend my next edge on and I came across this obscenity.

Free fast regeneration for our beloved Eldakar caster overlords?  Why not!

requirements: Legendary, Power of the ascended: Summoon Ally, Priest of light.

How to:

1) Summon a mighty guardian angel of the third host through power of the ascended.  This angel has: a) High magic Healing, b) 30 essence.

2) Have your angel begin the ritual to cast permanent preemptive healing at dawn on a very important day (or major conjunction) for x4 essence = 120 essence.

3) Preemptive healing costs base 3 + 8 = 11 x10 essence = 110 with a CM of -8.

4) 10 minutes per essence = 1100 minutes = 18.34 hours for the ritual and a CM of  -4 (-8 base +2 for faith mastery, +2 for healing proficiency).

Assuming your angel makes a 4 on 1d12 -4 that's it, you have permanent preemptive healing.

Power of the ascended means no essence and no maintenance costs for our angel.  You could easily have 4 or 5 of them casting this ritual at the same time to virtually ensure success.

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

faradhii wrote:

It's been a while, but some tricks I suggested to Mark for the upcoming Shay'anor game this Sunday bear some fleshing out (sorry in advance Howard!!!)

Note:  All of this crap is a THOUGHT EXERCISE and Howard, you should slap Mark (and probably me for showing him how to do it).

Love this!

 

So, out of curiosity, I was wondering if the Brain Trust behind this forum might do me a favor?

Can any of you build me a broken Heroic-100 XP Martial Artist? I've been looking at the MA rules and I'm curious how they could be maximized. Power gaming isn't my forte and I think seeing somone gifted with maxing the rules might help me better understand how to better build my own.

Odd request, but thanks!

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

faradhii
faradhii's picture

NP at all Howard, are there any restrictions you want?  IE: race, etc?  if not, I already have a damned scary bare hand guy I'll flesh out with Shaintar rules (not if race is not an issue, the guy WILL be an Ogre....)

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Also, I'm assuming core + Shaintar only correct?  If Deadlands is allowed, it gets silly quickly.  (see martial arts styles from deadlands reloaded)

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Hmmm.....   also, does it HAVE to be a martial artist?  or could it be a natural warrior (Dregordian with claws/teeth/tail) using the natural warrior edges?

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Only restrictions are Shaintar source or accepted crossover material. There is the forum post that outlines what edges are legal for us. Other than that, yes Martial Artist.

Go wild

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

First: There's no reason a Dregordian can't be a Martial Artist,

Second: If the character takes some of the racial edges and Beast-Control edges (Calm/Embrace/Ride, Focus of Iliana (Dregordia Book)) a Dregordian can become one of the most terrifying Martial Artist types I can think of.

Third: Add the spell Damage Field to the Martial Artist (While this is nerfed in Shaintar by the fact that the damage from the field is a secondary roll and not added to the dice rolled for the hit this combo is still a terrifying amount of damage)

Edges that make good use of the build: Ambidextrous & Two-Fisted, Druid or Priest (Damage Field & Boost Trait), Soulguard(if Druid) & Lightbringer (if Priest), Close Fighting, One Against Many, Student of Forms, Takedown, Wrestling, Brawler & Bruiser, Counter Attack & First Strike, and Acrobat

Also, at 100xp the character is Legendary.  Only Heroic to 99, which means there's room to top the build off with a Legendary rank edge if you like.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

faradhii wrote:

So I was deciding on what to spend my next edge on and I came across this obscenity.

Free fast regeneration for our beloved Eldakar caster overlords?  Why not!

requirements: Legendary, Power of the ascended: Summoon Ally, Priest of light.

How to:

1) Summon a mighty guardian angel of the third host through power of the ascended.  This angel has: a) High magic Healing, b) 30 essence.

2) Have your angel begin the ritual to cast permanent preemptive healing at dawn on a very important day (or major conjunction) for x4 essence = 120 essence.

3) Preemptive healing costs base 3 + 8 = 11 x10 essence = 110 with a CM of -8.

4) 10 minutes per essence = 1100 minutes = 18.34 hours for the ritual and a CM of  -4 (-8 base +2 for faith mastery, +2 for healing proficiency).

Assuming your angel makes a 4 on 1d12 -4 that's it, you have permanent preemptive healing.

Power of the ascended means no essence and no maintenance costs for our angel.  You could easily have 4 or 5 of them casting this ritual at the same time to virtually ensure success.

 

The problem here is that the Power Of The Ascended edge specifically states that this can't be used for High Magic powers.  By that description and going from the intent of what that means, calling in another being with this in order to have them use High Magic is still using High Magic through this edge and officially that would be wrong and not allowed.  A good attempt at a loophole/work-around though!

 

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii
faradhii's picture

@swampfoxib

Yeah, I get what you're saying.  The implication is the summoned creature from Power of the Ascended Summon Ally is still under the aegis of MY spell.

I would offer up, though, that "I" am simply casting power of the Ascended Summon Ally to call a being to aid me in any way it can.  The called being should be able to use any and all power at it's disposal.  IE: "I" am not casting high magic healing and/or high magic succor (both edges that 3rd host angels have) the summoned ally is.

Still, even without power of the ascended, an Archmage could still pull it off: Meditatively cast Summon Ally for 1100 minutes would mean you'd need 1107 essence which means you'd need X number of linked mages/items/place of power to pay the cost BUT the angel would be the one who paid the permanent essence cost, UNLESS the ruling is that as the summoner of the angel "I" am the one who would ultimately pay the cost....

Kind of an interesting moral quandry as well, you'd be "forcing" an ANGEL to buff you!  I'm sure Archanon would take a dim view of that  :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

OK, I posted an Ogre martial artist in Rangers of the Greenway Road.  It's named Hulk in the NPC section.

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

I looked, and one thing that is a cheese-dick move that has been banned in the past and will continue to be is using Epic Destiny to take Back to Basics. It's completely against what epic destiny was intended for and so we don't allow it.

The fact that you did it twice means the character is well and truly not allowed if only for that reason.

Other than that it looks like a truly terrifying creature in a combat situation, but doesn't have much going for it outside combat.

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

Zadmar wrote:

 

However it's worth remember that every time the character rolls a natural 1 on their arcane skill die (regardless of bonuses or Wild Die) they become Shaken from the Backlash - and then they have to make a Smarts roll or drop all of their powers. That Smarts roll will always fail on snake eyes, so if you keep boosting your traits over and over, eventually you'll lose all the spells.

Only certian types of Magic Arcane Backgrounds are suceptible to Backlash.  On some a 1 only means failure of casting the spell.  Also, a benny can be used to re-roll and prevent this effect.

On the previous note, I would think that with Dispel it would be the type of effect that matters.  You dispel that effect, if there are multiple spells of the same effect cast by one caster then one successful Dispel would work for all of them.  Also, remember if you have multiple spells up then it gives you a higher difficulty (-1 on a die for each spell I believe) to cast.  So the I have d12+infinity is not really a realistic problem.  Now Several casters could Boost one person and send him out to win, or even a group of newbie Archers if the same group casts on several people.  If you have, say 10 different casters casting say Boost Shooting on a person on a wall, giving them a d12+20 or so, then they just used "Bypass Skull" and make their arrows hit home, Heck, if you cast Quickness on him then he can have about 6-9 killshots on anything on the field.  Now, something to keep in mind, story-wise:  That many casters in the same area is VERY RARE to have.  Remember a magic using character are even more rare than Surgeons are in a given population.  And one that can cast well is more like a heart surgeon.  Not many.  But then again, this is the Hand Book of the Broken.  So breaking the system is the goal.  It is realitively easy to do with a little thought on combinations and the right circumstances.

Matrix

 

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Sorry, I know Back to Basics had been discussed but never knew there was an actual ruling on it.  I'll remove it and swap some things around.  Shouldn't affect the build much.  And, yes, it's a combat machine, he asked for a martial artist and said "go wild".  As long as the basic "draw 3 cards and get super joker for x2 dmg." mechanic is used you can really fluff it to taste.  You don't really need anything else.  I thought about taking paladin and righteous fury to get berserk for example.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

OK, all fixed.  basically I lose a point of vigor.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

A mercenary I crafted as a NPC for a PMC group is a Venerable Dregordian old enough he is a Kor-In Master with usage of his teeth and claws. A frightening combination. No offense to you Faradhii, but as the guy playing One punch Knockout aka Murvoth....I probably have a few builds I could craft. Ogres are the easy button, never go for the easy button. Korindians, Dregordians, humans and Orcs I find with the combination although a Half blooded Orc will reign supreme for absolute calamity. 

 Edit:: I shall offer an alternative and Howard can decide properly. Sorry...Ogres as the go to option isn't that impressive..again my opinion and he said only Shaintar and Deluxe meaning no Unarmored Warrior[ That is from a different book and technically not on the original list of accepted edges]. Lastly stop with the references with pop culture, original names it was a rule for J&L. 

 

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Oh hush Ruben, if you haven't figured it out by now I take very little seriously!!☺

Dúnedhel Vala!

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

faradhii wrote:

@swampfoxib

Yeah, I get what you're saying.  The implication is the summoned creature from Power of the Ascended Summon Ally is still under the aegis of MY spell.

I would offer up, though, that "I" am simply casting power of the Ascended Summon Ally to call a being to aid me in any way it can.  The called being should be able to use any and all power at it's disposal.  IE: "I" am not casting high magic healing and/or high magic succor (both edges that 3rd host angels have) the summoned ally is.

Still, even without power of the ascended, an Archmage could still pull it off: Meditatively cast Summon Ally for 1100 minutes would mean you'd need 1107 essence which means you'd need X number of linked mages/items/place of power to pay the cost BUT the angel would be the one who paid the permanent essence cost, UNLESS the ruling is that as the summoner of the angel "I" am the one who would ultimately pay the cost....

Kind of an interesting moral quandry as well, you'd be "forcing" an ANGEL to buff you!  I'm sure Archanon would take a dim view of that  :)

 

I can see what you mean here, and on whether the angel would use itself in that fashion I would say no.  They are servants of Archanon and not you.  Your character upon asking an angel to do this would most likely have to explain to Archanon himself why he was asking one of his angels to do something so selfish.  Because if you were planning to permanently cripple an angel in that fashion (the permanent essence of the angel is the caster would come from him) it would draw the question of are you worthy to call on his angels.  If you called the angel down to link with you as the main caster for assistance it might be more acceptable. Might.

As a GM that's not something I'd want to deal with, and I would say no to it. But technically if your character we're going to do it you'd have to make all of the rolls for that casting while doing it yourself meaning you are spending that permanent essence cost because you are the main caster. At 1100 minutes, odds are it won't happen. That's over 18 hours and as was mentioned above even if you spent the bennies to keep it going that's a roll multiple times a minute.... 

 

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Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

faradhii wrote:

OK, I posted an Ogre martial artist in Rangers of the Greenway Road.  It's named Hulk in the NPC section.

Hulk SMASH.

Thank you. I appreciate the work you put in. Seeing how your layer the Edges helps me a great deal.

 

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

faradhii
faradhii's picture

howardrbrandon-RF wrote:

 

faradhii wrote:

OK, I posted an Ogre martial artist in Rangers of the Greenway Road.  It's named Hulk in the NPC section.

Hulk SMASH.

Thank you. I appreciate the work you put in. Seeing how your layer the Edges helps me a great deal.

 

 

NP, and again, as long as you hold onto the basic chassis of Blood of legends/Mighty Blow you can flavor it to taste.  As Swampfox mentioned this guy is boring out of combat, but can easily be made a fully fuctional non-combatant with a fair number fo skills.  Just take educated and training and voi la!

Dúnedhel Vala!

wilcoxon

One I came up with...  I'm currently using it as one of my characters but expect to retire it at some point as it gets more silly...

Basics Human alchemist (only to qualify for some edges) and artificer optimized for artifice

Important Edges:

  • Creation: Alchemist, Epic Destiny (Arcane Artificer), South-Born (+1 Smarts and skills)
  • Novice: Education, Keowlin Academy Graduate
  • Seasoned: Savant, Epic Destiny (Maestro)

Gear: Artificer Chest, Wright Pack

Basics:

  • Your Smarts and linked skills now cap at d12+1
  • You get +1 to all Smarts-linked skill rolls
  • You get +3 (+2 from Savant and +1 from Wright Pack) to Artificing rolls
    • This can go up to +8 if you Artifice you Wright Pack for +5 to artificing (or, if the GM requires it, +5 to each specific knowledge required for artificing)
  • Your time to do artificing is halved to (d4+1)/2 hours
  • Your potions only take half as much essence and always get the raise effect (not really a big deal unless you decide to pursue Alchemy more than I did)

For added combat capability and fun, you can add in Sorcery where you can have effectively unlimited essence (25 essence per item that each recover 1 essence per hour).

The only real potential limit on this build is the nmber of skills needed based on what materials you want to artifice.  I've found Silver (all white silver weapons/armor and lots of jewelry) and Wood (shields, bows, and other wooden weapons) cover a huge variety but others may want you to pick up Steel Weapons and/or Armor (it bugs me that these were separated as it's one material type).

Your character won't be a combat monster (too much goes into Smarts and its linked skills) but can have high bonuses to many different things (unbreakable, +5 Sorcery, +5 Fighting, +5 almost any other skill, +5 Parry, +5 Armor, -5 Coverage, 25 essence per item, etc, etc, etc).  With Sorcery thrown in, by the time you qualify for High Magic, you will have enough essence to cast almost any effect you want without doing a ritual.

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