Errata Survey for published materials

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Gibben_Draxx_RF
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Errata Survey for published materials

Ok folks I'm looking to our players and GM's for help building an official errata for any Shaintar published docs.  Please post any corrections or edits you see are needed to the official Shaintar published docs.  As we compile and validate them they will be added to the thread here for ease of reference.  When posting an edit please use the following format:

Book/Product, Page # | description of issue | suggested correction

Matrix4b

Here is SPF's take on Growth that I see in the forums.

http://www.shaintar.com/?q=node/1542

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Off the top of my head, stuff I've found that is broken:

1) 1/2 blood goblinoid edge combined with Human edge epic destiny combined with human edge back to basics.  Arguably not "broken" but still may be more powerful than intended.  I suggest leaving it in human hands ie: epic destiny: back to basics.

2) Ogre race combined with Unarmored Warrior. 

3) Ogre Juggernaught with Heavy weapon edge with the charge line edges up to heroic charge.  Though arguably not broken as it pretty much takes all your edges.

4) Bolt power: Veteran applications edge Area of effect Large burst template, heroic surge.  6d6 rain of bolts in a large burst template.  Other edges make it worse (eldakar sorcerous virtuosity, mage, humans can use epic destiny to do this at novice instead of veteran).  This combo is proudly banned in 2 games now  :)

More as I think of them.

3)

Dúnedhel Vala!

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Matrix4b wrote:

Here is SPF's take on Growth that I see in the forums.

http://www.shaintar.com/?q=node/1542

Addressed in Magic and Cosmology Volume 1

faradhii wrote:

Off the top of my head, stuff I've found that is broken:

1) 1/2 blood goblinoid edge combined with Human edge epic destiny combined with human edge back to basics.  Arguably not "broken" but still may be more powerful than intended.  I suggest leaving it in human hands ie: epic destiny: back to basics.

2) Ogre race combined with Unarmored Warrior. 

3) Ogre Juggernaught with Heavy weapon edge with the charge line edges up to heroic charge.  Though arguably not broken as it pretty much takes all your edges.

4) Bolt power: Veteran applications edge Area of effect Large burst template, heroic surge.  6d6 rain of bolts in a large burst template.  Other edges make it worse (eldakar sorcerous virtuosity, mage, humans can use epic destiny to do this at novice instead of veteran).  This combo is proudly banned in 2 games now  :)

More as I think of them.

1. Goblinesh Craig, not Goblinoid as by now should know being in a Gather campaign. Anywho this is less a half blood problem and more the discussion on the forums on utilizing Epic destiny at the start with back to basics.

2. Might be easier to throw away Loincloth hero completely instead of a has vs has nots. But yes, Ogres with it are scary.

3.  Not warranted in my opinion, as stated its a dedicated build. If you spend the time to craft this, you reap the rewards like how OP archers in Shaintar can be.

4.  Situational, might need a topic on RAW vs  What seems right for applications. Though yes two said no, its more a thought on the applications in this case. It is scary however and well..another payoff on builds as you started this true destruction at Heroic which makes sense.

 

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

Where is this loincloth hero edge from? That might be a fun character concept to build from; very Cimmerian sounding. I guess unarmored warrior is the real name but the question stands.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

DavidFredricksonJr. wrote:

Where is this loincloth hero edge from? That might be a fun character concept to build from; very Cimmerian sounding. I guess unarmored warrior is the real name but the question stands.

Beasts and Barbarians

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

Is this a book for sale or some online sourse. Drive thru RPG didnt list it as being a Savage Worlds book.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

Gibben_Draxx_RF
Gibben_Draxx_RF's picture

Folks lets please keep this to Shaintar products ONLY!!!! 

========================
Shawn Gore
J&L Project Director
Member of the Raven's Flock
GM for Rangers of Jasara
aka - Gibben Draxx (Grey Lantern)
========================

faradhii
faradhii's picture

If you insist, but if products outside Shaintar are allowed to be used then they need to be addressed with regards to game balance.  I personally use Unarmored Warrior (loincloth hero) on pretty much every non/low armored toon I have (my familiar wolf "Bait", My adept "Talkemada", My goblin "Zathras" will almost certainly take it at osme pt.  as will my horse "Almaarea") but even I would not use it on an Ogre......

I still think the Bolt/Applications Area of effect/Heroic Surge chain is viable as Murvoth pointed out it only comes on-line at heroic and by that time we're SUPPOSED to be, well, heroes!!

 

Dúnedhel Vala!

Gibben_Draxx_RF
Gibben_Draxx_RF's picture

Lets make something clear.  While other products may be allowed it is on a case by case basis for each GM to approve or not.  Meaning if you make a J&L home character that your GM approves using an option from a NON Shaintar product and bring it to another J&L event.  It is up to that new GM to approve it or not.  As we have no control over those products and are not going to edit the Shaintar products to get along with other settings or products we need to focus on how shaintar and the core savage worlds rules work for all errata  updates.  If you are wanting to discuss how shaintar and a third party product work then please start up another thread for that.   The focus of this thread is to help us find any edits that need to be made with Shaintar producst so we can collect them into a single point of reference. 

========================
Shawn Gore
J&L Project Director
Member of the Raven's Flock
GM for Rangers of Jasara
aka - Gibben Draxx (Grey Lantern)
========================

Ellen Garrett

Please remember to add BOOK and PAGE to your lists!  Thank You!!! :-)

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Sigh, censored for your viewing pleasure.  Please move any discussion of non Shaintar Core (SPF) material to this SPF approved:

Al has the right of it; I am posting the list of the names, but not the rules, because I would like very much for my professional colleagues and friends to benefit from your financial support of their products. I am merely pointing out that, in addition to benefiting from the settings, adventures, and source material those books represent, they also have material that is officially useful in Shaintar campaigns.

~SPF

thread: http://www.shaintar.com/?q=node/233

Dúnedhel Vala!

Gibben_Draxx_RF
Gibben_Draxx_RF's picture

Im not arguing the use of the 3rd party materials faradhii, I'm simply asking that we keep this thread to erratta like material for the shaintar printed materials.  Copying the statment by SPF doesnt change the request.  There is no way to errata all the possible 3rd party proucts a GM may want to use so keeping our focus on the Shaintar specific products keeps us on track to provide a beter more complete product.

========================
Shawn Gore
J&L Project Director
Member of the Raven's Flock
GM for Rangers of Jasara
aka - Gibben Draxx (Grey Lantern)
========================

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

Then the whole conversation regarding unarmored warrior is out. May as well delete half the thread.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

Saiderin the Raven
Saiderin the Raven's picture

Respect for Shawn Gore (Gibben_Draxx, AKA the Director of the Justice and Life program) is required to participate in any of these forums.

I trust my point is clear?

"There is no heroism without sacrifice. For this, I am terribly sorry."

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I assume some (if not all) of that is aimed at me.  My apologies if I offended anyone.  I really was just trying to help bring attention to things I think are significant power creep.  I do take things, perhaps, more personally than I should when it comes to tone directed at me,  the tone of "let's make something clear" and "I trust my point is clear" simply rubs me the wrong way.  Everyone on these forums, You, Shawn, myself, heck even Murvoth (Ruben) deserves respect!  :)  If you note the timeline I hadn't posted anything in this thread since Shawn's post on 3/8/15 as I figured I was annoying him.  I will continue that trend now and not post more here.  Once again, my apologies.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The Master.

Pure Shaintar:

Human (Alakar through manifest bloodline or ANY Goblinesh through 1/2 blood can do it though not as well).

put all your starting points in mental stats except d6 in vigor (necessary to take adept).  Epic destiny to take Puppet power at Novice. Survive/have fun with it and the other adept powers until seasoned, if you're human take southborn for +1 stat (spirit) and a +1 cap on spirit related skills (The Way) raise them to D12 +1 at your leisure.  Seasoned: Epic Destiny: high magic Puppet.  Find a Nice, Robust, Beefy, preferrably handsome/pretty commander of the enemy.  High magic Puppet him.  Stick a sword through your old body's eye.  Now you have great physical stats to go with your great mental stats.  Add in: Magic Proficiency: Puppet +2 to a single power (puppet) req seasoned.  Dreamdancer: +2 to all opposed rolls with adept powers (puppet).  At Veteran take hard to resist +4 vs. opposed rolls.  Trade bodies pretty much at will.  Add in Expanded Understanding: Applications: Area: Puppet.  Call it "String Quartet" to Puppet Master in a Large burst template (totally ally friendly as you simply don't exercise command over any allies you dominate).

Dúnedhel Vala!

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

ok that is gross.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I beg of the creator/administrators of this game: USE ME!!  I will find the unintended interactions that will prove harmful.

The fix to the above (besides the obvious DM saying "NO!" which is always the end-all/be-all) is to make epic destiny strictly human only and put High magic on the no-fly list for it.  It doesn't fix the broken combo entirely, but it does make you wait until at least veteran.  That being said, no sane DM would allow it.

Dúnedhel Vala!

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

Speaking of broken when in conjunction with Epic destiny; master fencer. I was playing around with character concepts the other day and having a legendary edge at 75 XP which is when I had all of the prereqs finalized in my build was just downright gross. The other facters in the build were a high taunt and all of the dirty fighter edges.

first strike with the range of lunge; and as many counters as you could generate. plus nearly anyone who comes at you would be subject to the rough side of your tounge and shaken before they even get within range.

perhaps if I posted the planed advances Ill be more clear? Human obviously begining edges are: Heirloom(elven rapier) and fencer. Something happened to the formatting; there isnt supposed to be any spaces from here on out just the line by line breakdown.

5 XP: spirit D6
10 XP: south born (stat point = agility)

15 XP: acrobat parry +1 +2 to all AG rolls for acrobatic things including tricks = parry 13

20 XP: quick

Seasoned 25 XP: AG to D12

30 XP: training (skill points = fighting D12, stealth D6, intimidation D6, shooting D8) parry 14

35 XP: first strike

40 XP: quick draw

45 XP: glib (taunts are free actions)

Veteran 50 XP: battle hardened (+2 soak checks)

55 XP: tricky fighter (AG)

60 XP: Lunge

65 XP: counter attack

70 XP: vigor to D10

Heroic 75 XP: epic destiny: fencing master

80 XP: one against many

85 XP: spirit to D8

90 XP: soul bonded sword (+1 AP +1 damage)

95 XP: student of forms
Legendary 100 XP: weapon master (fighting D12 +1 + student of forms = parry 15)

 

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

You are forgetting you need the legendary professional edge for Adept and its requirement before you even start this mess. Plus it is not unbreakable, wild cards do not lose their consciousness altogether and of course high magic dispel takes you out if successful.  I've realized this long ago for say a grand villain, but that presuming get that chance to slay yourself prior. More likely for someone evil than say good. 

Nonetheless I believe they are looking for things like misinterpreted words, spelling errors, and whatnot. 

 

Gibben_Draxx_RF
Gibben_Draxx_RF's picture

Murvoth you are correct, however everyone brings up some good points.  highlighting the potentially broken builds within the Shaintar books does help to address potentially larger issues.  I say go ahead and post what you find so we as the Raven's Flock can work with SPF to address them as needed.  

========================
Shawn Gore
J&L Project Director
Member of the Raven's Flock
GM for Rangers of Jasara
aka - Gibben Draxx (Grey Lantern)
========================

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

I posted it in another thread and, while legal, I still contend using Epic Destiny to get Back to Basics just to snag an addition Edge is Munchkin. I don't allow it at my home table. Don't know if this would qualify as an errata as there are no mispellings, etc..., just curious if there needs to be a ruling on this.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

It is quite obvious that epic destiny and anything involving a legendary edge before legendary is broken. MAybe the obvious fix is to nerf ED to state you cannot take things more than two advances above your rank?
You are novice you qualify for veteran.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

Steven C
Steven C's picture

While that may be a good guide I have the feeling that the edge exists to allow players quick access to the Sidekick edge or the like. 

Matrix4b

Something that is forgotten:  Epic Destiny states that with GM permission you can take a higher rank edge.  The key here is if the GM feels it is appropriate.  Personally, through the spirit of the game, No, taking: Epic Destiny: Back to Basics, at character creation is a munckin set up and what GM would allow it?  You are basically saying with your edges that you are given a great destiny and that destiny is to focus on the basics.  No, it doesn't work.  I also wouldn't use Epic Destiny: Sidekick for the same reason.  It is not within the theme of the game.

Also, the actions that were taken with the Puppet Build above would be evil acts and definitely NOT heroic.  Therefore against the spirit of the game, Epic Destiny would be denied by any Game Master that I know.  So again, although techically possible: AGAINST the THEME of SHAINTAR.

Please, let's keep the munckinism down and build with some sort of concious.  When creating NPCs we GMs do take a bit of care not to make it obnoxious.  Also, if you make some of these builds you are taking half of the challenge and fun out of the game.  This in my mind fits a Rule of Uncool or should that be Rule of Troll.  We GMs wish to challenge you, so the harder you make a character to be dominating the harder we will be on you, in order to challenge you.

Sorry to lecture, felt it was neccessary.  Think HERO not munchkin.

David Thomas Forby (Matrix4b)

Steven C
Steven C's picture

First of all I think we can ALL agree that Epic Destiny is a special edge to begin with that by its very nature can easily become horribly broken. I personally don't allow it in my games because I'm not interested in deterrming what is and is not broken using it, doubly so now if I now have to determine if said reason is themetically correct enough for Shaintar.

Also sorry the below is firmly off topic but I have a problem with using 'theme' to justify what rules should be doing.

Matrix4b wrote:

I also wouldn't use Epic Destiny: Sidekick for the same reason.  It is not within the theme of the game.

The sidekick edge starts with: "A character who triumphs over evil time and time again becomes an inspiration to others. Eventually, one of these young crusaders may attempt to join the hero in his epic quests."

Granted that is a giant ball of fluff, a great sound bite that is very in theme for what you are describing Shaintar to be, heroic. The reason I said I thought it was designed for Sidekick I remember someone, maybe a Flock member or someone else from Sean's game talking about using it for that purpose. I could be wrong on that and its creation roots.

What edges are themetically correct for Shaintar with Epic Destiny? 

Matrix4b wrote:

Also, the actions that were taken with the Puppet Build above would be evil acts and definitely NOT heroic.  Therefore against the spirit of the game, Epic Destiny would be denied by any Game Master that I know.  So again, although techically possible: AGAINST the THEME of SHAINTAR.

There already exists a thread (http://www.shaintar.com/?q=node/1997) in which someone asked about running an evil campaign. In that game, or games like it, without the theme of being a hero to stop it from existing can this  build suddenly and completely become viable?  To me the asnwer is No. This shouldn't be allowed not because of the theme of Shaintar but because it is broken. Mechanics aren't themes, they are the rules to help keep the game balanced and enjoyible. If you filter what can and can not be taken, done or used by the theme of the game then you are creating rules and I believe these rules should be spelled out, rules exist for a reason.

At the end of the day Sean's motto isn't "Shaintar, my way or the highway" it seems to be (and I'll qoute him from that thread).. if your group is going to enjoy it - play on!

EDIT:

I think there should be a healthly reminder on these forums. All Justice and Life games exist in Shaintar however not all Shaintar games exist in Justice and Life. I feel that reading threads a subtone has started to crop up where people often forget that and use the rules and guidelines of J&L to determine how something should or shouldn't be for all of Shaintar instead of the subset of its games. 

I've personally ran 6 Shaintar campaigns, none of them J&L, and if I had to bet I'd say 2 of them were against the themes of J&L and one was a crossover with Accursed and morally dubious at best. Should I have ended those two campaigns because they were not themetically 'Shaintar?' 

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I'm going to make another thread or something, maybe call it "Things that should not be allowed by same DM's' because I unintentionnaly de-railed this thread.  I really thought we were trying to errata things that were in-game broken.  Also, I second sidekick as an appropriate use for Epic Destiny.  Id My main character wasn't an Eldakar I would have taken it in a heartbeat for my enormous dog comapnion.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

Steven C, well said.  I didn't mean to seem to get on a High Horse here.  Recent, re-adjustment of thinking has got me overly sensitive.  Sorry.  Back to your noraml Erratta Thread.  I shall see about addressing these in other threads.