To prevent the spread of Darkness across the whole of the Southern Kingdoms, cede recently captured cities to Camon and ally to defeat Darkness?

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howardrbrandon-RF's picture
To prevent the spread of Darkness across the whole of the Southern Kingdoms, cede recently captured cities to Camon and ally to defeat Darkness?
Never! The Prelacy of Camon is as great a threat to the Southern Kingdoms. Better to die than join with evil of any ilk!
57% (8 votes)
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. To defeat a greater threat, a sacrifice is necessary, though we must remain vigilant!
43% (6 votes)
Total votes: 14
Torgan's picture
nobody expects the spanish

nobody expects the spanish inquisition

Don't trust the Chruch of Archanon... Ever ! :)

We, Cavaliers of Camon, know how such agreements ends, and it's not good !

We tried trusting them.  It

We tried trusting them.  It was called the Armistice.  That mistake now tolls in tens of thousands of lives.

Viviane de Norv...
Viviane de Norversant's picture
As much as I would like to

As much as I would like to pass on the regency, no way I stand besides those who tried to burn me.

I can understand your

I can understand your concerns, certainly! But, have you seen the battle lines?

They are but a few short victories from sweeping through to Olara..and North Face and Faraway are close to being isolated.. and personal experience has taught me what they can do with digging. We walk a precarious line...

What happens if The Prelacy falls? What do we do then? The Southern Blades have stretched resources thin and if our line wavers... Olara and Galea may be in danger.  So, really, do we even have a choice? Better to side to with the enemy, expecting betrayal, than see the full might of Shaya'Nor sitting on our doorsteps..

James Olexa
Community Manager

swampfoxib's picture
I'm not commenting in any

I'm not commenting in any official capacity but from a character standpoint:

My character would never side with the Prelacy of Camon. She'd side with the people of Camon but never a religious fanatic organization bent on wiping all of her people and her allies/friends people from existence or enslaving them as lesser beings.

Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

faradhii's picture
If we do not unite and try

If we do not unite and try for victory together we will CERTAINLY suffer defeat singly.

Dúnedhel Vala!

For the sake of ease of

For the sake of ease of reading it... Below is the letter to The Southern Kingdoms

"To the Tyrants and Overlords of the belligerent Southern Kingdoms,

It has long been conceded as fact that your hearts are given over wholly to the dark masters you serve, and your vile mages. For this reason, we have stood in opposition, a beacon of Archanon’s Strength against your Heresy. Until you abandon your villainous ways and return to the folds of Archanon’s true Faith, this may never change.

But I hold out hope that you are all not purely evil, that there are those among you who have merely been led astray by false words and honeyed promises. In that hope, vain thought it may be, I entreat you now to turn away from your service to Vainar’s madness and stand with Archanon against the coming Darkness. Know, that this cannot absolve you of your crimes, though it may, with Archanon’s benevolence be a step toward redemption. 

Return to the Church of Archanon the territories of Camondel and Defiance so that we may stand and re-forge the shield of Faith that has so long sheltered you. Do this, in Archanon’s name, so that we might stem the tide of Darkness and save the innocents now threatened by your unwarranted aggressions. Should you choose, instead, to hold fast to Vainar’s will, we will be forced to stand aside and reveal to you the true price of service to the Vainar the Fallen, the God of Darkness and Death.

Choose swiftly, and wisely, for the hour draws near, and our fates Dark.
Grand Archcardinal, his Most Holy Anointed and Exalted Lanier Fareneux" 

-- From The Letter by The Archcardinal Lanier Fareneux

James Olexa
Community Manager

faradhii's picture
Ah...  nevermind....  If you

Ah...  nevermind....  If you lost territory, tough shit.  Suck it up Prelacy, you lost those territories, get over it.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii's picture
Heh, I had the swing vote. 

Heh, I had the swing vote.  Now if the Prelacy just wants to fight Vainar together that's fine.  But no lands will be ceded back!

Dúnedhel Vala!

An Official Response

Honored to be your enemy, Archcardinal,

You are not wrong in your assessment of Vainar's threat.  My Beastmen held the Northern border against the ravages of Shaya'nor with rallied assistance from the gathers for long, bloody months before reinforcements arrived.  I would remind you that during this time it was under your leadership that Camon plotted to turn their might against the Southern Lands instead of facing our true enemy.  That failure lies on you.

Your power lies shattered and even now my Beastmen hunt down the remnants of the abomination you have the audacity to call a church, a contract given to us by Camon's new monarch.  In less pressing circumstance I would simply fulfill the contract and not even bother with this letter.

With Darkness surging you are a distraction I can ill afford.  Therefore I am willing to overlook our past disputes and offer clemency.  I would bring your case before the Queen.  I generously offer terms, most of which you will recognize from when I presented them on behalf of the Northern Gathers at the Armistice.

Item 1:  The Church of Archanon must recant and denouce the doctrine of human supremacy.  All practices of oppressing, enslaving, and murdering non-humans must be ceased.

Item 2:  The Inquisition must be dissolved.  For their crimes, Inquisitors are never to hold any power or official positions or offices in either government or church within the borders of Camon.  Inquisitors who do not voluntarily turn themselves in and register will be tried by the people of Camon for their crimes.

Item 3:  The Church of Archanon must formally recognize the Church of Light as a legitimate and non-herectical entity.

Item 4:  The Church of Archanon may never again own land or possess armed forces under its direct control.

My terms are as simple as they are non-negotiable.  If you turn away my generousity I will have no choice but to bring an end to this farce.  I do not wish to spare the forces to hunt you down but I will not stop a tiger at the front only to let a wolf in the back.  I await your response, Archcardinal.  Either way, I will you soon.

I look forward to it.

Kassegore, Supreme General of Camon

So with Vainar's return and

So with Vainar's return and the distraction of the Crimson Crusade, the Southern Lands, Northern Gathers, and East and West Camon now find themselves in dire straits.  At the moment the two plans I currently see are as follows:

Cooperation:  We manage to ally with West Camon (if they submit to our demands).  A united Camon become the vanguard against Shaya'nor and we hold the line until we can find a way to strike at Vainar himself.  It buys a little more time but doesn't solve anything directly.

Antagonistic:  West Camon does not submit.  We attack key positions to weaken them and lure the forces of Darkness to them.  We use valuable time to martial whatever we can and march north in a desperate race against time to destroy Vainar before his armies consume us all.  Will solve things directly but we have to get it right since it's a huge gamble.

At the moment I think the Archcardinal's response will set the tone.  Now, if anyone has suggestions for either scenario please speak up now.  We cannot possibly save everyone.  But the better the plan is the less people will die.

Response from the Archcardinal

Howard Brandon has confirmed the Archcardinal will refuse terms so it looks like the second scenario.  Plan accordingly.

Torgan's picture
If the goal is to take on

If the goal is to take on Vainar himself, why not get around the bulk of the army by boats ? I suppose that such a perilious task would not be undertook by soldiers but only a small band of heroes, right ?

I was going on the assumption

I was going on the assumption there would still be a lot to clear through so I wanted the army.  Plus, it added another distraction to draw away forces from Vainar himself.  Sending some by boat is a great idea though.  It adds another backup plan.  Just not the dwarves.  Do you know what dwarves do on boats?  They tend to panic.  Or complain.  Or complain that they're panicking.

Better to die than to join

Better to die than to join ilk with ANY evil? So it is best to be a servant of Darkness? For death is not a resting death, but a nightmare where you return to devour your friends, family, and allies. 

Even if we go the route of "antagonistic"..The cardinal is saying he will simply stand aside and let them be overrun. Literally claiming thousands of bodies to churn the warmachine. And what then of your baiting?  Even so, if they did not, you attack to lure darkness...and then withdraw and give ground to an enemy that does not slow to build up lines.  Why not unify with Camon and build the lines? Perhaps this might be an effort to finally bridge the gap for Camon. Maybe, a step towards peace? 

“I do hereby solemnly swear, in the sight of the Ascended, that I will uphold the Code and the Cause of the Rangers. I will take no action that would dishonor the Rangers, or bring unjust harm to those they protect and serve. I will follow all lawful and rightfully-given orders to the best of my ability, and I will never shirk my duty to my fellow Rangers, to the lands we serve, or to Life itself.”

If we be Rangers...we have to think will this damn those we seek to protect and serve? 

James Olexa
Community Manager

Murvoth's picture
If we want to be candid on

If we want to be candid on the issue, we have no obligations to help Camon whom have targeted the weak and have went to attack life itself. They were aligned to the assaults on two of our most important sites in the Southern kingdoms. Since addressing ranger code.

* Our First Mission is the protection of Innocents against those that would cause them harm, deprive them of that which is lawfully theirs, or infringe upon their natural rights as Living Beings.We abide by the Laws and Policies of all Charter Sovereignties. We will respect the laws of all lands, save where those laws directly and egregiously violate our First Mission.

The fact they can't abide by the concept of getting rid of their government is proof of their hubris and where most of the suffering has occurred for quite a while. If the Chain of command deems it our mission, Murvoth will follow it to the letter for saving them. However by extension of channeling my character mainly..I cannot support them in the slightest and agree with  Kassegore { Whom isn't a ranger and not bound by the code anymore but an ally} 

With our most skillful users of magic...we can teleport[ high magic version] into their HQ. Aevakars skilled enough with the winds can float a certain amount of people whom don't follow the church to us. We can funnel those who won't keep to the dogmatic views. Does this make us a tad cruel? Yes but why offer the hand to those who already stabbed us in the back after a truce?  Beauty of magic are the methods can utilize to get others back.


EDIT:: Contender not thought of is the Builders aligned to them. They are perhaps the only ones if we can communicate who might agree to help.



What of the weak who are

What of the weak who are oppressed by them? If we war with The Prelacy we will condemn them. Where as if we agree to the demands of The Archcardinal, we may yet be able to save them.  Faraway left The Prelacy... there must be other citizens who would desire to do that as well, but they are not able to for whatever reasons. 

James Olexa
Community Manager

Revised Plan

Eyes on the prize first.  Do we have any operatives within Shaya'nor?  I realize there's an oversight in my plan.  I don't actually know where Vainar is to confront him.  If he's in the capital then going by ship is the easiest plan.  If he's somewhere else then we may need the army for a much harder overland route and we're going to have a major fight on our hands before we get to him.  We must know where to strike.  An army blindly wandering through that country would be cut to ribbons long before finding Vainar.  If the army goes by sea then the extraction is easy.  If they go by land then they will have to walk back out.  I don't think we could spare a second army to save the first so if successful they must deal with the fact they are deep inside a nation who's god they have just slain/banished and I'm sure Shaya'nor will be very much aware of where they are and what they have done.

As for West Camon, the bulk of our forces must remain outside.  We have an obligation to protect our lands and all who dwell within them first.  That does not mean we will abandon the innocents who still suffer under Prelacy rule.  I am willing to believe not every Camonere citizen is guilty of their government's crimes.  It will be a two part operation.

Part one, the majority of the forces sent will not engage the Prelacy unless absolutely necessary.  They will only move to protect unguarded civilian targets.  The goal will be solely to buy time for people to evacuate.  We cannot win a war of attrition and to even try would be folly.  If we have the magic to hasten the process, great.  But I'm not counting on it.  There may simply be too many people to move.  We're going to need planned mundane evacuation routes and protocols just in case.

Prepare to have your hearts broken.  Families may be split up in the chaos.  People are going to lose their homes and everything they've worked for their entire lives.  If some of the civilians are too slow and there's no magic or wagons to transport them you leave them behind.  A hard choice may come between the good of the army and the good of the civilians.  If you must, save the army.  If all our soldiers die there will be no one to save anyone later.  To quote Vulcan doctrine, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

The second part is for humans only.  These brave (and probably suicidal) heroes will dress in Prelacy uniforms.  They will target the Shaya'nor forces and draw them toward Prelacy targets.  If successful they will be caught between two enemy forces and have to find their own way out.  Let the Prelacy and the servants of Darkness battle each other.  Should our people survive they move on and find the next opportunity to repeat the process.  It may be prudent to stay just long enough to see which side is the victor to better plan the next engagement.

We will use our enemies to eliminate each other and buy precious time while we seek to save as many innocents as possible.  I would normally make a big deal over how limited our resources are and how dangerous these missions are.  Unfortunately that seems to have been the norm for the last three wars Kassegore has been a part of and at this point I see no reason this should be any different.

So, volunteers?

So, we have to find a large

So, we have to find a large enough force to send to Shaya'Nor AND still maintain the battlelines? After all, the blades themselves are trapped at Camondel and can only retreat through Defiance, and if the West Flank of The Prelacy falls, we just leave that part of the war to a weakened Olara? Is that your grand plan? 

Because looking at the battle lines, The main force can't help Olara. They can only directly defend Galea. And as I pointed out early, Olara has been through a few wars here lately so they are FAR from tip top strength. Combine that with stretched thin resources (thanks to supplying the blades), and they are ill prepared to wade in against darkness.  Sure, they fight forces of the Prelacy but that is an easier war to fight than to fight the savage creatures of darkness. 

Having been at Eckhart keep... As you pointed out yourself, magic is probably limited. And when it was limited at Eckhart, vampires and specters penetrated our defenses easily. Constantly picking us off while we tried to rest. And we were outnumbered. Which Olara will be if the war shifts to the way you think. 

Because the othe flaw I find is you say "bait darkness".  Darkness has baited us this entire way. Do you think they do not have plans of their own? Directions to go? The Blood Lord is still at large... and apparently so is a Mad Bomber. 

James Olexa
Community Manager

Planning Pitfalls

I don't think of army as a horde of thousands.  I'm think more along the lines of a few hundred.  I'm always assuming we're vastly outnumbered.  If we have to sacrifice ground to send forces to Shaya'nor we do it because if we do not stop Vainar then all is lost anyways.  If I am wrong in that assumption someone let me know immediately.  Also, do please note that I am also working from the standpoint in this scenario there are absolutely no good options.  There are simply ones that completely do not work and others that suck slightly less.

West Camon will fall.  That's part of the plan.  We're not fighting there to save it.  We're fighting to stall for time so Vainar can be assaulted directly.  Save as many as you can but that's not really our first priority.  If the northern expedition is fast and lucky enough the fighting is contained to West Camon.  If not, then we pull back to Olara.  It does not please me to say this, but if it comes to that Olara is probably a lost cause.  Fight to stall for time and to evacuate as many as possible.

As far a the soldiers, the Southern Lands, East Camon, and the Northern Gathers send as much as they can.  I know we've all been bled white from the Crusade but I cannot care about that.  We will all fight because if we lose we will certainly all die.

Though the Blades are currently trapped in West Camon that puts them directly on site to start this operation.  Even if we go with my plan the reinforcements still won't be there is time.  They're on their own until they can meet up with them.

Out of all the mages, druids, artificers, etc., has anyone ever figured out exactly how the Prelacy managed to teleport an army to burn Archnaya.  If we could do that, even just once, it would be an incredible help.

Moving on, does anyone have actionable intel on Vainar.  Is he in the capital?  Is he somewhere inland?  Is on another plane of existance we need to jump through a portal to get to?  And if the last one can we make our own portal or do we have to use Shaya'nor's?

Continuing from that, the northern expedition must be aware of another possibility.  If this is chess then Vainar is their king.  They have to know that and may even use him as bait to crush the last bit of hope we have of winning.  Unfortunately knowing this changes nothing so everyone who's a part of that army should be aware it's probably a one way trip.

samiraravenwood91's picture

I get your plan on wanting to strategically strike at points in the Pralacy so that Darkness can wipe them out. But, how do you plan to address their sudden influx in numbers? What I mean is, as Darkness moves across the field they will be reanimating those bodies that have fallen during those particular strikes and the skirmishes that will soon follow. Because of this, when their armies reach the Southern Glades and/or the forces of Olara, how do you plan to address the greater numbers? Also, if Olara becomes too taxed they will no longer be able to offer supplies and/or support of any kind. I'm asking simply because we just recently had an attack by Darkness using Olaran tactics in Echer'Naught. They used the reanimation of bodies in a surprise attack and we were severly outnumbered and hit in very strategic points because they had intel from a former Ranger. I think that we could, very possibly, be underestimating Darkness in this current situation because now they know exactly how we fight, not only through Echer'Naught's recent incident, and have probably learned throughly through years of warring with us.

We don't deal with their

We don't deal with their numbers because we can't deal with their numbers.  It was only to buy time with the added bonus of destroying Prelacy forces.  I get this impression that people are looking for a plan that saves everyone.  That plan doesn't exist.  Unless the gods themselves come down, directly intervene, and push the "I win button," we're on our own.  And let's face it, if they could have done that they would have by now.

Let's review the facts in so much as I'm aware.

1.  We cannot win this war conventionally.  They only grow stronger and we only grow weaker with each battle and we were already weak to begin with.

2.  They have a god that manifested and is directly acting on their behalf.  We do not.

3.  Without a god of our own to counteract theirs we have no chance of winning.  Therefore we have to remove theirs.

4.  We CANNOT save everyone.

5.  The most conventional warfare will accomplish at this point is buying time.

6.  None of the previous points change the fact we still need to fight and we still need a plan.

7.  My plan is still the only one currently on the table.

Our enemy has greater numbers.  They may know our tactics.  They have a dark god.  Blah, blah, blah.  None of these facts change to objective of taking out Vainar.  I assume you're all onboard with that goal because that's the one thing no one has challenged me on.

So, once again, does anyone have any ideas or any potential solutions?  I'm not even looking for a solution to fix everything or a winning battle plan right now.  (Though if you have one then now's the time to share.)  Someone simply tell me something we can do instead of just telling me everything you think we can't.

Murvoth's picture
Vainar has yet to manifest

Vainar has yet to manifest needing darkest night which is dark moon 33rd on the 13th hour for a huge ritual to get him out. Believe this is the case because I witnessed it . He likely in the Greylands biding his time. Either need our best there or assuming someone will be his avatar is tucked in their homelands. After I have more freetime tonight I will gladly brainstorm other tactics. Granted Murvoth tactic tends to be straightforward 


Monkey Wrench

Hopefully that means we just have to stop him from manifesting.  If we're very, very unlucky we may have to go in the Greylands to confront him directly.  One problem at a time though.

The is something wonderful about hearing his coming needs a large, powerful ritual.  There are several problems with large, powerful rituals.  The two most immediate being they are hard to hide and easy to disrupt.  Since it's such an important event I image a lot of Shaya'nor leadership will be there.  Whoever ends up on the mission please be a dear and kill as many of them as possible.  A lot of their top mages should be there conducting the ritual.  Kill them too.

I think we can all accept

I think we can all accept that we can't save everyone. That's part of the curse of being the hero.. Yet, by giving us time to forumlate a plan, we're giving Darkness time and, as we all probably know, the more time Darkness has the stronger it gets. We're stalling time for a plan we don't have while the enemy gets stronger. 

Or we act now and unite with an enemy that, while we may hate them, are less threatening and easier to deal with than darkness. Something I think we can easily claim. And those are the two plans -- the two choices we must vote on. 

Do we unite behind a common cause with Camon and battle the bigger force together? Or do we face The Darkness on our own?  

The unity of enemies has happened in the past to stop a larger foe -- The Dragon Wars, for example, where the forces of Light, Darkness, and Flame unified to stop the Dragons from burning the realm of Shaintar to the ground.. We also have The Betrayer Wars that show what happens when an enemy Betrays the alliance.

 So we must ask ourselves:  Do we stand beside The Prelacy and try to stop the forces of Darkness, a force far greater than The Prelacy? Or do we stand alone?

And the votes shall decide our course of action -- Your Vote, for those reading, will shape the landscape of Shaintar forever!

James Olexa
Community Manager

The poll has closed.... The

The poll has closed.... The die has been cast... 

James Olexa
Community Manager

Capnsmitty19's picture
Man, I wish I wasnt so busy

Man, I wish I wasnt so busy with work...this would have been awesome to be part of... )c: