Handbook of the Broken.

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faradhii
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Handbook of the Broken.

This will be both a service thread for GM's in order to see what should either NOT be allowed in games or only allowed with full warning of the consequences.  It is based on the Character Optimization boards of Dungeons and Dragons.

It will also be a thought exercise for those, such as myself, who enjoy pushing the boundaries of game systems.  Here you may safely post your builds and, hopefully, be praised for them.

I will categorize each build as:

A) An Abomination, should not be allowed in any game ever

B) Broken, should be treated with great care, DM's beware, judge the player and how the build is likely to affect the game.  When in doubt DM's should NOT allow this.

C) Bent, treat with care but simply a powerful option, typically something that comes on line late in a chracters career or isn't bad enough to be "broken"

D) Powerful, legal & well balanced.  An integral part of a well designed character.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The Master.

Pure Shaintar:

Human (Alakar through manifest bloodline or ANY Goblinesh through 1/2 blood can do it though not as well).

Starting requirements: D10 spirit, D6 Vigor, D10 The Way, Southborn: +1 Spirit (spirit caps at d12+1 as does all spirit related skills (The Way) ) Epic Destiny: New Power, Puppet.

Novice: Order of the Azure Citadel, +1 Spirit, +1 The Way & +1 any other skill, Power Points (or any other edge).

Seasoned: Epic Destiny: Order of the Saphire Citadel, Magic Proficiency: Puppet (+2 to rolls), Dreamdancer (+2 to opposed rolls of The Way), +1 The Way & +1 any other skill, Power Points (or any other edge).

Veteran: Epic Destiny: High Magic Puppet - Now find a Physically Perfect Individual enemy that your party was going to kill anyway & perma puppet him.  you know what he knows (arguments could be made you get his/her knowledge skills) and his/her physical stats to supplement your mental stas.  Morality is not within the scope of this thread, but I could argue taking his body for your own use is no worse than just killing him., Hard to resist: +4 vs. opposed rolls, Expanded understanding: Area (for String quartet, dominate a large burst template).

At early Veteran you have: +3 to adept rolls & +6 to opposed rolls for a total of +9 to dominate your chosen target.

Analysis: An Abomination.  Should not be allowed in any but the most OP games.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Biggest argument here comes down to Epic Destiny in itself with each case being with permission. Moment you start going for Legendary edges I feel it would be shut down. Also for those reading, remember high magic version of spells cannot be combined with applications as SPF has said it himself. Lastly I could see a more effienct build being crafted by not rushing to become body snatcher master, though it fit better with a villain.

A sidenote, if you seek out this physically perfect individual enemy, its unlikely he is some random and instead someone important. Doubtful allies want anyone holding it and in cases like say they have something wrong with them, might end up twisting you and congrats...new threat to the campaign. 

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Just post your unarmored warrior Ogre build.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Steven C
Steven C's picture

Personally I think anything with the Epic Destiny edge itslef should be tagged Broken just because of the nature of the Edge. 

I like the idea of the thread, to many people see something like this and scream 'munchkin' without realizing that some of the people making them have no intent on ever playing these things. Theorycrafting for the sake of theorycrafting is often fun, its like opening a car to look at the engine and seeing just what it can do.

That said I doubt (and heck I could be proven wrong) that such a thing will will work on this forum. Shaintar uses story, theme and in game events to limit a lot of its stuff and the players/GMs around here seem to like it this way. What events are normally considered to already have persmission in CO Threads seem to be viable mechanical roadblocks for the character in this forum.

Murvoth wrote:

A sidenote, if you seek out this physically perfect individual enemy, its unlikely he is some random and instead someone important. Doubtful allies want anyone holding it and in cases like say they have something wrong with them, might end up twisting you and congrats...new threat to the campaign. 

Except he stated that "Now find a Physically Perfect Individual enemy that your party was going to kill anyway."  Something tells me that whether the 'dubiously heroic' characters kill that Physically Perfect Individual or play body snatchers with him chances are equally good that a new threat to the campaign will form. 

----

Not entire sure about a 'build' but I always thought taking Bloodsoother (Succor as a free action) and any of the Heroic [insert name] edges that have powerful effects but fatigue you was shady. Heroic Sweep/Strike/etc.. -> become fatigue -> Succor (free action) -> repeat until essence low.

But hey at Heroic maybe doing this is just normal.

 

Murvoth
Murvoth's picture

Steven C wrote:

Except he stated that "Now find a Physically Perfect Individual enemy that your party was going to kill anyway."  Something tells me that whether the 'dubiously heroic' characters kill that Physically Perfect Individual or play body snatchers with him chances are equally good that a new threat to the campaign will form. 

----

Not entire sure about a 'build' but I always thought taking Bloodsoother (Succor as a free action) and any of the Heroic [insert name] edges that have powerful effects but fatigue you was shady. Heroic Sweep/Strike/etc.. -> become fatigue -> Succor (free action) -> repeat until essence low.

But hey at Heroic maybe doing this is just normal.

Yes indeed, intend to kill which at many times its a person influenced by Darkness or Flames.  Gaining their physical traits, some things not consider is if something wicked has caused that "perfect form". Just thoughts.

Onto your mention, a means of evading the essence would involve say a nice soulbond item or improved dealing with pluses to help negate the minuses you gain for Souldrain. I've seen a player do it well and with that idea with Succor that is how I envision a Bloodsoother becoming quite deadly.

 

faradhii wrote:

Just post your unarmored warrior Ogre build.

That distinct honor goes to Grimjack as he is the origins of taking Loincloth hero......however the mere thought of it is still frightening. Suppose can enlighten people with that nightmare.

Unarmored Juggarnaut 

Shaintar, Deluxe Edition and at least Beast and Barbarians[Only 1 edge approved from book]

Ogre [ The +2 toughness for being large is what makes this build possible ] 

Concept:: Ultimate Walking Fortress of Doom and worse... without needing Armor . Will ignore the build sorta but here a slight idea.

Stats: Agility D8 [start], Smarts D4, Spirit D6, Strength D10, Vigor D10

Starting:: Behemoth and Brawny   

Novice:: Mixed Bloodline to Acquire Bulky , Increase Spirit [D8], Robust [D12 V], Loincloth Hero aka Unarmored Warrior [Gives you a free soak if wounded].  Toughness :  13

Seasoned::  Battle Hardened [+2 soak], Elan [+2 to reroll],  Mixed Bloodline:Defender of the Gather[ Gain a benny to free soak if take damage protecting another], Robust [D12+1] , Increase Vigor to D12+2    

Toughness= 14 

Veteran:: Mixed Bloodline::Improved Defender of Gather[Go berserk hence boosting toughness] , Hard to Kill, Increase Strength to D12, Nerves of Steel, Siege Strength 

Heroic: Harder to Kill, Improved Nerves of Steel,  Mixed Bloodline::Unbowed, Juggarnaut , Liquid Courage [more vigor to d12+3]

Legendary:: Start with Enduring then get the Orcs Tireless,etc...

Other means like stacking more vigor increases but its an example of such a build. A soak monster essentially.

 Analysis: B or C 

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

Murvoth wrote:

Ogre [ The +2 toughness for being large is what makes this build possible ]

It's important to remember that being Large also gives Medium foes a +2 bonus to hit you, and gives you a -2 penalty to hit them back.  Combined with Shaintar's brutal "Bypass Skull" rule, foes could make Wild Attack Called Shots to the eye for a grand total of -2 to hit and inflicting +6 damage - and your effective Toughness would be halved to 7.  The Unarmored Juggarnaut is also highly vulnerable to Taunt and Smarts tricks (reducing their Parry by 2 and causing them to become frequently Shaken), and if the enemy have a good Gang Up bonus as well they could wear him down pretty fast, particularly if they're hitting with raises.

 

Matrix4b

Murvoth wrote:

Biggest argument here comes down to Epic Destiny in itself with each case being with permission. Moment you start going for Legendary edges I feel it would be shut down. Also for those reading, remember high magic version of spells cannot be combined with applications as SPF has said it himself. Lastly I could see a more effienct build being crafted by not rushing to become body snatcher master, though it fit better with a villain.

In some cases it works well.  There is a Preist of the Light with Lightbringer as an example.  He has had it since character creation and it has proven useful in battling the Darkness.  But it didn't come up in very many games until recently.

I think that with a little care this Edge works great.  I don't really like the Body Snatcher idea.  That smacks of a Villan to me.  It may be a good idea for a villan but as pointed out Applications and High Magic do not mix.

I once saw a player build a character that was a Novice and no advances that got a +8 Chrarisma bonus.  It was difficult to see.  I ran a game for a Legendary character that could speak every language and had a bunch of edges designed to convince the enemy to join their side.  Not every battle can be talked out of. 

So, yeah, seen a bunch of legal builds that were simply abusing the rules.

David Forby

Steven C
Steven C's picture

That reminds me of something a friend and I were tinkering with that we joking called our 'Buddy Archanon' build. We thought it was funny but never really considered using it. It was based on this rule under Savage Worlds listing of the Persusasion skill... Charisma: Persuasion is always modified by a character’s Charisma.

Rank: Seasoned+

Race: Eldakar

Skill: d12 Persusasion, other skills as required

Edges: Attractive, Very Attractive, Charismatic, Priest, Glib, Fast Talker

Miralces: Boost Trait

Buddy Archanon starts by casting Holy Presence on Boost Trait (Persusasion) gratnting him a +1 to Persusasion or +2 on a raise. Now with Glib and Fast Talker Buddy Archanon can make Test of Wills in combat with his Persuasion Skill, opposed by the target’s Spirit as a free action. Persusasion (should allow) the use of Charisma meaning he gets +10 Charisma (2 from Eldakar, 2 from Attractive, 2 from Very Attractive, 2 Charismatic and 2 from the Holy Presence trapping) plus the +1/2 from boost trait.

The character rolls a d12+11 on Test of Wills generally or if Boost Trait fails to cast (it happens) d12+8. Which seemed to inidicate that lots of things were going to be shakened often for the Raise effect of the test of wills.

If this was something 'broken' the easiest and best fix would be to lift the limitation from Impressive; The maximum amount of modifier from Charisma that should be permitted for the Persusasion check used for Test of Wills is +4.

We thought about a variant of this we called the Screaming Archanon where we build a character able to take War Cry as a Priest with Holy Presence as an Imtimidation monster. d12 Imtimidation with Boost Trait and Holy Presence (note that HP grants a bonus to Intimidation) means that if we got a raise on the Boost Trait it would Test of Wills as a d12 + 4 (max Charisma bonus) +2 (to Intimidation for HP) + 2 (Boost Trait Raise) on everything in a Cone. 

 

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

As my mind doesn't usually lend itself to building mechanically broken characters (I am all story), I would like to just take a moment to say that I am thoroughly enjoing this conversation.

Please do go on.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

Matrix4b

Buddy Arcanon and Screeming Arconon--Wow.  That's not something that I would want to have in my game.

d12+10 for an opposed roll is nearly an instant win.  Not every creature can be persuaded.  You attack that character with something with animal intelligence, Boom, your Persuasion doesn't work.  They lack the ability to comprehend.  Such a highly focused build is never a good idea in my mind because when ever you put the character into a situation that is outside of the focus the player get's upset, and it can happen often. Depending on how thight the focus is.

Steven C
Steven C's picture

For the most part you are right, Optimization is about doing one thing and doing it very well. Also remember that Buddy accomplished what they did with only 4 Novice edges and 2 Seasoned while Screaming used less then that so there is plenty of room for a Seasoned character to either 'more Optimize' the one trick pony or to spread out and brace for their weaknesses.

Screaming was the inspiration of a War Cry based former Kalish warlord (no magic) that was looking to return the Empire to its noble warrior roots but hated the Unchained because they botched raid on a stronghold that caused his family to die. He was extremely interesting to play, he had many of the same goals as the unchained but his anger and hatred at the death of his family meant he had no issues outing the Unchained and using them to further his own goals. One of the things we made sure was that his families death was the fault of the Unchained, well it was an accident of course but we didn't want it to be the overused troupe of 'It was the Empire the whole time now we can be best of friends, down with the Empire!

Gibben_Draxx_RF
Gibben_Draxx_RF's picture

I have to agree with Howard, please do go on.  There is some great information here, I have stickied the thread so it is not lost in the future. 

========================
Shawn Gore
J&L Project Director
Member of the Raven's Flock
GM for Rangers of Jasara
aka - Gibben Draxx (Grey Lantern)
========================

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Who has 2 thumbs and LOVES Buddy Archanon?  THIS GUY!!   :)

With regards to the unarmored warrior build, even with Bypass & added dmg. you still have the FREE soak roll.  Let's say a standard 2d6 range weapon.  With +6 dmg vs. 7 toughness: 13 avg. dmg.  that's 1 wound.  Lets make it tough:  25 points of dmg.  4 wounds.  1d12 + 4 soak as a free action avg. roll 11 soak 2 wounds easily pushed or re-rolled iwth elan.

I rate it a sold B.  Also note that this doesn't require a huge amount of edges that any Ogre wouldn't typically take.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Buddy Archanon depends on the campaign.  A city campaign I'd rate it a low B high C.  Wilderness campaign a low C.  I like how it doesn't use many edges at all!  Also if you add in the human Epic Destiny/Back to Basics it really only takes 3 edges to do Buddy at novice rank, but you lose Eldakar.  Also you can add in Bard for a situational +2CH, and Noble for an Un named +2 CH and Noble has benefits of it's own, opening up education edges and recycling resources.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Ixnay
Ixnay's picture

Matrix4b wrote:

I ran a game for a Legendary character that could speak every language and had a bunch of edges designed to convince the enemy to join their side.  Not every battle can be talked out of. 

I guess that character wasn't a fit for your game. I often see trick/test of wills/talky characters restricted by these sorts of limitations. I don't see the same sort of limitations applied to characters that focus on magic or focus on combat. Magic, combat, or talky -- they all spent the edges for the effect. Is it because the talky character is not fun for the rest of the players?

I don't want to threadjack but this struck a chord for me. Are some builds not broken, per se, but just not considered fun by the community?

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Talky characters have a place in martial combat.  there are edges that specifically allow the use of social interaction to mess with enemies.  Taunt as a free action for example, can shake foes, then you hit them.  There are edges for: Taunt, Intimidation, and persuasion that are underrated and potentially VERY powerful.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Steven C
Steven C's picture

So as to not derail another thread, I enjoy those types of discussions as well Ixnay I have created a new thread called Roleplay and Rollplay found http://www.shaintar.com/?q=node/2032

 

Steven C
Steven C's picture

Lesser Thratchen Popping

Rank: Seasoned

Components: Teleport (Power) + Trigger (Application)

Teleport: "This counts as his movement for the round. Adjacent opponents do not get a free attack against the teleporting character."

Trigger: "then activated as the result of a specific condition or within a pre-arranged time frame."

This essentially allows the magic user to pre cast a teleport spell as a one use escape for an attack. The tricky part is coming up with the trigger the caster wants AND is acceptible to the GM while also making sure you have not used your movement for that round.  The potential issue is that if used in the most ideal conditions it allows the character one 'get of jail' card from most physical situations they paid essence in rank (10” per 3 Essence, or 15” per 3 Essence on a raise). 

Provided you are able to fill those three requirements you have a free escape from one situation, potentially. Granted you are at a -2 penalty on Casting Rolls, something that could be reduced by taking Magic Proficiency on your common spells (or anything else). 

NOTE:

Interesting thing about Trigger which is why I placed it down here away from the intent of the power. It starts with "This effect enables a specific power to be cast in advance..." One of the requirements for teleport is that it counts as your movement for the round however if Trigger is allowing you to use the power ahead of time does that mean that it uses the movement of when the character is activating it to be triggered later? Could this mean that since they gave up their movement when placing Teleport into the Trigger (pre activating it) that they could full move and then use the triggered teleport? The intent it to have the spell stored for later use with the essence basically pre-paid and the casting actions completed so it seems logical.

Steven C
Steven C's picture

Demotivational Archanon

Rank: Veteran

Edges: Priest (N), New Power (Curse) Magic Proficiency (Curse) (S), Magic Proficiency (Boost Trait) (S), Easy Magic (Curse) (V), Easy Magic (Boost Trait) (V), Expanded Understanding (Application) (V)

Application: Linkedx2

Miracles: Curse, Boost Trait

Only the Penitent Shall Pass

This Miracle is invoked using the Penace Trapping with Curse linked to Boost Trait Trait generally to target the Spirit attribute as an option to potentially Shaken lock them. The Priest rolls their Faith die gaining a +2 bonus to the roll, if successful their Faith dice is increased by two ranks. Next the Priest rolls their new Faith die twice giving each roll a +2 bonus to each roll. All targets in a Medium Burst (+4 Essence for Large Burst) roll their Spirit as an opposed roll against the both of the Priest's Faith rolls. Any being that failed their roll lowers the target trait by four ranks, however this Miracle cannot reduce any trait below a d4. Once completed the target makes new Spirit roll and on a failure is Shaken with a natural 1 on the Spirit die, they suffers a Fatigue level.

Cost: 12  - 2/round (3x2 for Curse [M&C Vol 1 lowered it], 2 for  Boost Trait, 2 for Linked  and 2 for Penance)

Technically its 3/round but Boost is mainly their for the extra bonus to Faith to kick the Target.

IMPORTANT NOTE 1:

So this Miracle uses the Curse power twice to target the same Trait which I am unsure of legalities of this move. Shaintar: Legends Arise has Lower Trait linked with itself in multiple examples however those examples do not target the same trait. This may have been the orginal intent but it is not stated that it offically works that way and I couldn't find anything that hinted or explicted stated anything against this. If it does then technically this build/Mircale can be altered to use Lower Trait where Boost Trait is. It doesn't change the Edges, simply replace Lower where Boost is and it does remove one Link Application and reduce the Miracles cost to 8 essence from 12 (remove one Curse and Linked, total 4 essence). You could however add the Area application to the Mircale for +2 essence and have Lower Trait now have the same AoE as Curse.

IMPORTANT NOTE 2:

Question that may, depending on how this is answered, push Only the Penitent Shall Pass into an even further level of power. The Penance trapping starts with: "For any offensive effect, the victim can be made to deal with..." does this mean it targets everything in an Area of Effect for offensive effects like Curse? This may be 'rules lawyer' but the wording seems to work on that idea. The trapping is at the core 2 essence to force the target to roll to see if their Shaken which is what the Stun power for 2 essence and it is an Area of Effect power so not sure here.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I would argue that "uses your movement for the round" would mean that if you have already moved for that round then it would simply take up your movement for next round.  I'm falling back on DnD here where you are basically using an "immediate interrupt" to get out of jail free.  Say condition is: "I am about to be hit by an attack" Activate Teleport.  As this is a one shot I would rate it a high "D" , powerful but not broken.  A nice find!!

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Note 1: I think "Multiple castings stack" indicates that yes, curse can be used multiple times to lower a trait to a 1d4.

Note 2: "For any offensive effect, etc. " Curse is an offensive effect and, yes, the area of effect is a nice albeit unintended icing on the cake IMO.

High B, heavily broken but not an abomination.  The caveat "cannot decrease attribute below a d4" means that there is always the chance, although marginal at best, that enemies can survive it.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

"Rain of A'sh"

Requires: Sorceror (novice), Bolt power (comes with sorceror), Mage (seasoned) Applications, Area Large burst (Veteran).  At this point you can use the base 3d6 bolt in a large burst template to rain 3d6 on each target.  Arguments can be made that 1) you have to roll to hit each target, this means that the mage edge applies to each roll and can, potentially, lower the cost to nothing plus you get a wild die on each roll, but you face potential backlash on each roll.  2) you roll to hit once and compare the results to each target.  This is the more logical approach IMO.  Heroic Surge (Heroic) NOW this comes on-line.  For the cost of rolling a spirit rill at -2 (Bolt is, after all, a novice power) to avoid fatigue you up the damge to 6d6 in a large burst template, ouch!  Note Heroic surge does NOT grant an automatic fatigue!!  You can resist the fatigue with a mere spirit roll (at -2 due to rank of power).

Honestly I consider this a sold "C" as it comes online at heroic.  However as it has been banned in 2 games *small bow* I guess it's more powerful than I consider it.

Note: Humans can do it earlier via Epic Destiny.

Note: Eldakar do it best with Sorcerous clarity, Sorcerous virtuosity, etc.

Note: you can add in all the usual mage stuff, easy magic, magic proficiency to increase the hit chance.

Note: You can use "link" application to also Lower trait vigor to make the enemies suffer MORE damage.

Again, solid C.

Dúnedhel Vala!

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

When you are casting a spell which hits multiple targets but needs an attack roll for each you only get the one wild die. SWD page # 67 'ranged attacks, page # 70 - 71 automatic fire. And If Im not mistaken it states as much in the spell discription as well. Yes page #110.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I think I phrased it badly, Bolt is a single target spell.  The area application makes it hit multiple targets but does not intrinsically change the fact that it is a single target spell.  Thus I would think one to hit roll and 1 wild die for all affected targets.  If you make it multiple to hit rolls, and yes only 1 wild die to replace the worst, then you open up Mage shenanigans where each raise subtracts an essence from the total cost of the spell.  It does not seem fair that the more targets you have, the greater chance of more refunded essence.  though you do run the risk of more backlash assuming a 1 on the wild die and ones on the casting die.

Dúnedhel Vala!

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

No read the description. It says that when you spend the extra points to get extra targets you spend the extra points and the tragets are treated as if you have an automatic weapon. Which has rules on the pages I listed.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

You are correct IF I were casting multiple bolts ie: spending 3 power points to cast 3 2d6 bolts at 3 different targets.  What I am actually doing is casting ONE bolt (the single 3d6 bolt) and modifying it by the area application.  The fact that I am hitting 5 targets for example does not change the fact that it is the single 3d6 bolt modified by area application.  In theory, and by the rules, I could cast 3 2d6 bolts each modified as above to make 3 large burst template heroic surged 4d6 areas of attack.  I would only get one wild die to replace one of the 3 rolls made to target each creature in the 3 "bolt" areas.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Steven C
Steven C's picture

What he is doing is basically turning Bolt into Blast, Burst, Curse or any other Area of Effect power. These normal AoE powers have the caster roll once and apply the caster's result to each valid target individually. 

Normally bolt is akin to firing an arrow, shoot one target with one use of the bolt power. Shoot multiple targets with multiple uses of the power following the rules that were cited on how to do that. What he has done is to esstentially duct tape a grenade on the tip of his arrow and fire at the target. Its one shot but the grenade is going to affect everyone in the area as it would.

What makes this power messy in a way faradhii just mentioned is that he can use the multiple Bolt rule to fire multiple 'Rain of Ash' on the targets inside on it. Technically even using Easy Magic to keep the damage the same (Note: Sean's ruling on Easy Magic, or how he stated he used it at his table was that if you hit your considered to gain the +1d6 raised damage). If he did that then he would need to follow those rules you have listed and considering the damage he has list he would be spread a lot of sadness in that area. 

DavidFredricksonJr.
DavidFredricksonJr.'s picture

oh hell
Nothing like the law of unintended consequences to make you stit up and take notice.

Est Sularus oth Mithas.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Yeah, I never even hit my DM with that much pain.  The bolt power states if you cast multiple bolts you may spread them amongst targets as you see fit.  this means in theory you could dump 3 4d6 (probable 5d6) bolt areas on a single group of targets. Minimum 12d6, probably 15d6 dmg. 

the cost would be prohibitive: I'm a bit tipsy, so math may be off, BUT...  base 1 per missle = 3 + 2 per bolt = 9 +50% per bolt rounded up = +2 per bolt = 15 -1 if you're an Eldakar and -1 per raise (probable -3ish) = 11 essence for the effect.  Still, S**t gonna die......

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Please dont' take anything I post here as me being upset/angry/annoying (well, maybe annoying!!  :)  )  It's impossible to convey emotions on the internet and I dont' want anyone to take offense at crap I post in this thread.  If I'm wrong I want to know it as it will affect my builds. 

Dúnedhel Vala!

howardrbrandon-RF
howardrbrandon-RF's picture

Impressive.

Howard R Brandon III

Community Manager

AKA Colonel Alexander Wolfhaven

Echer'Naught Regional Command HQ

faradhii
faradhii's picture

The Ogre.

I believe this fine young gentlebeing deserves a section all to itself.

The Ogre, if played correctly, can be a fine addition to any gaming group.  A creature with personality and direction, hopes and dreams not unlike any other character.  This treatise is about how to play the Ogre INCORRECTLY!  :)  Each build belowis the natural evolution of edges focused on a single thing.  There are no reasons why elements of the various builds cannot be combined.

Note that any of these builds can be "fast-forwarded" by the use of the Half-Blooded edge (Goblinesh companion) and the dreaded human edge Epic Destiny.

1) You have already read the above "Nekkid Ogre" build using Unarmored Warrior, maxing toughness, and maxing vigor check bonuses posted by Murvoth.

2) The Lawnmower - This is a simple little build.  Take your typical Ogre chasis, Stats are important: I suggest a d10 in St, 1d8 Vigor, d10 Agi, 1d6 smarts.  Use your starting flaws to take More than Muscle (you need 1d6 smarts for student of forms)  & take heirloom weapon White Silver Olaran Sword (your parents saved an Olaran, whatever, this is a theoretical build) the key is the Olaran 2 handed sword has reach 1 (If any Olarans object tell em to toss off, you're an Ogre after all!).  Take 1d12 fighting (other skills as desired) )  Novice: Sweep, Robust, Spirit d6 (for soul-bonded item), trademark weapon Olaran Sword,

Seasoned: Soul-bonded Olaran sword (ask your DM if reach qualifies as a "minor quality" it should, it's in the same category as +1 to a trait and +1 parry if the answer is "yes" take +2 reach.  Assuming your DM isn't insane and says "NO" and thumps you on the head, take +2 to fighting). Student of Forms (Olaran Sword) Other edges as desired (sunder, Behemoth, etc.)

Veteran: Improved Sweep, Improved Soul-Bonded item (+1 to either reach or fighting, Quickness power) Other edges as desired.

Heroic: This is the time that it all comes together with the Ogre edge Massive Sweep.  At this point you can combine the quickness power from your sword to hit everything up to 2 hexes away from you (more if reach is a "minor quality") twice.  (Note: do NOT bother with heroic sweep and Legendary sweep, they are actually worse for our Ogre Lawn Mower) Add in other edges as desired.  I recommend raising spirit to 1d8 and taking Heroic Strike, for added fun take Greater Soul Bonded item (+1 to whatever) and the Succor power to remove that nasty fatigue you get from heroic Strike  :)  )

Legendary: Nothing really necessary, though you may as well take Master of Forms: Deflection and Artifact: (talk to your GM first as this is under his control).

Have fun with your whirling engine of destruction!  :) 

Again, a Half Blood Ogre can do most of this by Veteran using Epic Destiny.

A medium C rating unless you use the Half Blood trick in which case it's  B.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Coming Soon:  The Ogre Charge machine "Do you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut B****!!!"

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Summon Mirror Self at Seasoned/Veteran?  Sure, why not!!  :)

This trick involves Improved Soul Bond.

1) Get Improved Soul Bond  :).  This can be done at Veteran for anyone and at Seasoned for Human's using Epic Destiny.

2) Pick Summon Ally as your power.  Summon Ally is a Novice rank power so no issues there (yet!)

3) Under the description of Improved Soul Bond it states: For non-arcane casters, use spirit to activate the power.  If there are any extra effects based on added essence being spent the hero can add each suck effect by  adding a -1 to his spirit roll to activate the power.

Summon Ally cost - Novice: 3, Seasoned: 4, Veteran: 5, Heroic: 6, Legendary: 7.

So for a -4 penalty to the spirit roll you can summon your mirror duplicate!  :) 

(note, arguments could be made that upping the rank is not an "extra effect")

Any race (Eldakar come to mind) that can buy up the spirit cap can partially negate the -4 penalty.  Eldakar have Enlightened (other races may have it as well, I forget) humans have Southborn to negate 1 of the penalties.

Priests can use this to Summon a mighty angel of the third host at Veteran and Druids can get Leviathans and Iron golems.

An A rating as it 1) should NEVER be allowed and 2) the question of whether up ranking is "an effect" makes it suspect.

Thanks to Gratien (Mark H) for putting the thought in my mind with his Summon Ally Lance that Rich finally banned.

 

Dúnedhel Vala!

Saiderin the Raven
Saiderin the Raven's picture

I should have never, ever opened and read this thread...

"There is no heroism without sacrifice. For this, I am terribly sorry."

Matrix4b

Relax, Sean.  I see this thread as, What could be alowed but shouldn't.  Most of the things discussed already have GM approval as a requirement in it.  Some people like breaking things for the sake of the challenge but have no intention of actually doing those things.  Kinda like playing Grand Theift Auto or something.

 

Dave

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Yep, I enjoy thought exercises.  This is mostly theorycrafting & a way to warn DM's if they see stuff like this coming.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

As Promised:  "I'm the JUGGERNAUT baby!!"  (note, Juggernaut used a naughtier word in X-men Last Stand!  :)  )  Ogre Charge Machine.

Again:  Typical Ogre Chasis: Agi: d10, Smarts: d4, Spirit: d4, St: d10, Vigor: d10.

Skills: any you like but fighting at least d10.

Starting edges: Behemoth, Fleet Footed.

Novice: Brawny, Nerves of Steel, +1 Spirit, any other unless you take 1/2 blood in which case you use the epic destiny trick to take Charge.  I suggest either two fisted, raise stats (st/vigor to d12) raise Agility and fighting/1 other. etc.

Seasoned: Charge (at this point he can full move 18" +1d10 and beat the **** out of someone), +1 Spirit,  Any others, fill in gaps, etc.  If using 1/2 blood, take epic destiny and Improved Charge.

Veteran: Improved Charge, If you use 1/2 blood take Juggernaut.

Heroic: Here's where it comes together (unless you cheated and took 1/2 blood and even then it only partially works). Juggernaut, Heroic Charge.

At this point you can move 28" Knocking aside everyone with an opposed Strength check at +4 to apply Bash and Knock Prone, the ability to shrug off shaken results as a free action with a spirit check or a benny.  The end attack on the target does 2xSt + Weapon dmg (use an Ogre siege maul for maximum fun at breaking Castle walls or Dragon equivalent armor!  :)  )  Note you must make a vigor check at -2 to avoid a fatigue.  this should be easy sauce for our Juggernaut.

I recommend adding in Heroic Strike: This will enable the end attack to do 2xSt + weapon plus 1's also ace and you get an extra d6 per raise!!!

I also recommend adding in the soul-bond line with succor as your power to get rid of that annoying fatigue  :)

Legendary:  You already ARE legendary, choose edges as you see fit!  :)

 

High C, low B if 1/2 blood is not used.  If 1/2 blood is used, High B.

You need a lot of edges to do it, but all the edges are useful.  It would be very easy to combine Lawn Mower AND Charge Machine AND Unarmored Warrior for a TRULY terrifying Ogre.

 

Coming soon  "this is my BOW, there are many like it, but THIS is MINE!"  or "Is that your brain on the end of my arrow?"

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

Minor trick I've been meaning to post:  "Familiar's: useful allies AND bennie generators!!!

Requirements: Druid, Familiar edge.

Step 1: pick your familiar (preferrably a flying one (credit to Rich for this) )

Step 2: Level up your familiar using the follower rules: 5 or 6 on a d6 gains 1 level up, see Legends Arise.

Step 3: the familiar is a wild card, but has no bennies.  The familiar has the "loyal" hindrance (arguably as a "wild card" the familiar can take other hindrances like Code of Honor or Heroic, I do not subscribe to this, but it IS possible).

Step 4: Take "luck" and "great luck" as your first level up edges.  this gives you 2 bennies and 1 carry over for loyal.

Step 5: Take "common bond".  You now have a battery of at LEAST 2 bennies, probably 3.  If you're lucky enough to get a "chosen of the Horn" for your familiar, 3 to 4 battery bennies per session.

I'd give it a low C: bent but not really TERRIBLE.  A useful emergency button.

Dúnedhel Vala!

faradhii
faradhii's picture

How to add +2 steps to every attribute?  Let me splain it to you!  :)

Only works at legendary and only with Eldakar.

Pre req's: Legendary, Eldakar, Sorceror

Step 1: Take "Power of the Ascended" Eldakar racial edge, choose "Boost Trait"

Step 2: Take "Archmage"

Power of the Ascended: "If the power has a duration greater than instant it can be maintained indefinitely if the caster uses it on himself".

Archmage: "Archmages also ignore ALL maintenance penalties"

Effect:  Cast Boost trait on EVERY conceivable trait you have, make sure you get the 2 step raise effect.

That's it.

Really, that's it.  You now have +2 steps to EVERY trait and no maintenance penalty to cast other spells.  Welcome to GOD mode.

Rated "A" an abomination that should not be allowed in ANY game.

Credit to Rich for also seeing the Boost trait angle which is usuable by any caster class that can cast Boost trait, but would inflict MASSIVE maintenance penalties that limit it's effectiveness.

Dúnedhel Vala!

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

faradhii wrote:

You now have +2 steps to EVERY trait and no maintenance penalty to cast other spells.  Welcome to GOD mode.

What about Disruption?

 

Matrix4b

Well, if you want to go through Boost Trait and go through Essence quick:

Step 1: Boost Trait: Arcane Skill (this makes getting the +2 more likely)- Meditative casting is best here.

Step 2: Boost Fighting (hopefully getting the +2 die)

Step 3: Boost Fighting again (they stack according to the rules), getting another +2 boost.

Step 4: Boost Fighting again: now at anywhere from +3 dice to +6 dice

You have the high strength for 1 round unless you maintain all of the Boosts.  Same can be done with Strength, now you have a Goblin caster with a d12+2 strength and a d12 fighting: easy BUT for only 1 round.

Give that Goblin an item with Warrior's Gift in it and you have one powerful little guy that will wreck an opposing group (Atleast until you run out of essence)

A better option would be to do it with 2 items of power so you don't even need to be a caster and spend all that essence: 1 item has Boost Trait, 2nd item Warrior's Gift, or even a 3rd item of Quickness to make it happen quicker.

Rated B for with in the rules and possible but difficult to pull off.  If you give this to say an Ogre, fighter, then you can really ramp the strength up.

Matrix4b

Well, if you want to go through Boost Trait and go through Essence quick:

Step 1: Boost Trait: Arcane Skill (this makes getting the +2 more likely)- Meditative casting is best here.

Step 2: Boost Fighting (hopefully getting the +2 die)

Step 3: Boost Fighting again (they stack according to the rules), getting another +2 boost.

Step 4: Boost Fighting again: now at anywhere from +3 dice to +6 dice

You have the high strength for 1 round unless you maintain all of the Boosts.  Same can be done with Strength, now you have a Goblin caster with a d12+2 strength and a d12 fighting: easy BUT for only 1 round.

Give that Goblin an item with Warrior's Gift in it and you have one powerful little guy that will wreck an opposing group (Atleast until you run out of essence)

A better option would be to do it with 2 items of power so you don't even need to be a caster and spend all that essence: 1 item has Boost Trait, 2nd item Warrior's Gift, or even a 3rd item of Quickness to make it happen quicker.

Rated B for with in the rules and possible but difficult to pull off.  If you give this to say an Ogre, fighter, then you can really ramp the strength up.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

Matrix4b wrote:

Step 4: Boost Fighting again: now at anywhere from +3 dice to +6 dice

You should be careful with what you are typing.  You don't get additional dice.  The bonus becomes a higher die type, possibly gaining a d12+2 or some such depending on where you start.  But you aren't gaining dice.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

Matrix4b

Sorry, meant die code.  This is what I meant, not adding dice.

faradhii
faradhii's picture

I am embarrased to say I missed the fact that boost trait doesn't say anything about not stacking (thanks Matrix4b)!!  This means you can have 1d12 + infinity to every trait eventually.  Plus you can cast it on others as you see fit, you're entire party can be God mode.

@ Zadmar: I'm thinking you mean dispel?  That is always a risk, but dispel says "can be used on a power already in effect"  While an argument could be made that Boost trait is only 1 power no matter how many times it's cast, I think each casting would have to be dispelled individually.  Also, dispel is resisted by an opposed arcane roll at which I have 1d12+infinity.   :)

Dúnedhel Vala!

Matrix4b

faradhii wrote:

I am embarrased to say I missed the fact that boost trait doesn't say anything about not stacking (thanks Matrix4b)!!  This means you can have 1d12 + infinity to every trait eventually.  Plus you can cast it on others as you see fit, you're entire party can be God mode.

Remeber that you are still limited to Duration: 1st casting has 3 rounds, 2nd casting has 2 rounds left on the first spell, 3rd casting has 1 round left on the spell.  So you are limited here, and as I mentioned by Essence.  You can run out of that quickly but you could Soul Drain yourself to annailation easily too.

David Forby

Matrix4b

And actually it specifically states that it does stack.  But Duration is the key.  Personally, I wouldn't go much beyond 2 levels and that would be for things that are REALLY important to accomplish.

Zadmar
Zadmar's picture

faradhii wrote:

@ Zadmar: I'm thinking you mean dispel?  That is always a risk, but dispel says "can be used on a power already in effect"  While an argument could be made that Boost trait is only 1 power no matter how many times it's cast, I think each casting would have to be dispelled individually.  Also, dispel is resisted by an opposed arcane roll at which I have 1d12+infinity.   :)

No, I'm talking about the disruption rules. Power Of The Ascended states "These Powers are still susceptible to disruption, as per the Savage Worlds core rules". If you're Shaken you have to make a Smarts roll to maintain your powers, and if you suffer damage you have to make an opposed arcane skill roll against the damage.

For example if someone hits you for 20 damage, you have to beat 20 on an arcane skill roll otherwise you drop all of your maintained powers.

Of course my comment was made back when you were only talking about increasing every trait by +2 die steps. If the character is stacking up huge bonuses then it's going to be difficult to do much to them.

However it's worth remember that every time the character rolls a natural 1 on their arcane skill die (regardless of bonuses or Wild Die) they become Shaken from the Backlash - and then they have to make a Smarts roll or drop all of their powers. That Smarts roll will always fail on snake eyes, so if you keep boosting your traits over and over, eventually you'll lose all the spells.

swampfoxib
swampfoxib's picture

on the damaging effect, if you soak all of the damage then you don't have to make the save.  It's only when you sustain a shaken, wound, or other effect that you have to make a save to keep your powers up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parks

Previous Culture Warden

In Game:
Lt. Felosia Naiilo - High Druidess: Phoenix Moth Grove; Sog
Lt. Magpie Stormsinger - Trollkeep

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